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roronoa79
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27 May 2020, 12:36 am

People always tell me that I should try to be more assertive and point out when I disagree or object to something someone did. This is, obviously, up until the moment I disagree with the person telling me that or object to something they did. Much like how when people say I should express my anger more, or when people say I should get better at saying "no", or when people say I shouldn't place so much importance on pleasing others.
They say these things up until the moment I express my anger with them. Or I say "no" to them. Or I stop placing so much importance on pleasing them. I struggle to think of a single person who has not verified this for me.
I do what people actually want to do, which is smile and nod and roll over whenever confrontations arise. No one wants disagreement. No one wants conflict. No one wants to be told no. No one wants to be asked to change. I'm just giving people what they really want, but if they learn I haven't been expressing my anger or disagreement, they get upset that I'm not being more open and honest. Openness and honesty are not what are wanted. Openness and honesty run the risk of showing me to be something besides what others want me to be. And people tend to want others to be they way they want others to be.


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kraftiekortie
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27 May 2020, 8:22 am

It’s better to assert what you think is right in a diplomatic manner.

Make sure you assert what is right, without insulting a person you are debating with.



Joe90
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27 May 2020, 2:29 pm

I've often found that the very people that tell me to say "no" more and to be assertive ect, are the ones that get upset when I was assertive to them. It was as though the rule was "be assertive with everyone else but you must not be assertive with me".


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roronoa79
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27 May 2020, 3:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s better to assert what you think is right in a diplomatic manner.

Make sure you assert what is right, without insulting a person you are debating with.


Typically I try and bend over backwards to be pleasant when I actually do call someone out, unless its the rare chance that they've actually made me so mad that I don't care. But most of the people who tell me to be more assertive love to use that as an excuse to dismiss me. I'm expected to listen to their criticisms of my behavior regardless of how condescending or insulting they're being, but if I criticize their behavior in a manner that isn't 100% certified calm and respectful, then I am dismissed.
It's especially infuriating when one of those people in particular, responded to me suggesting that they should try to express their anger more constructively with "I guess I just shouldn't express my anger then". More or less an admission in my book.
That's a more egregious example, but it's just another part of a long, depressingly typical pattern.


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I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν
Those in positions of power do what their power permits, while the weak have no choice but to accept it.

- Thucydides


kraftiekortie
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28 May 2020, 5:33 am

You can break the pattern. I was in the same pattern you were in.

The way to do it is to not SEEM so set in your opinions.

I would watch the Hanna-Barbera cartoon where a wolf and sheepdog battle each other during their “working” day, yet are buddies after they punch out for the day.



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29 May 2020, 7:26 pm

Maybe you have already thought of this and maybe it doesn't apply to your situation but...people getting upset with you for disagreeing with them doesn't mean they actually want you to keep your disagreements to yourself and "roll over" to please them.

It's not pleasant to have a disconnect with another person; that's why most people dislike disagreement. But mature, emotionally healthy people know that it's better to express disagreement and manage the disconnection than to hide all our disagreements.

What I'm saying is this: don't assume they were contradicting themselves just because they get upset when you do what they told you to do.

Another thing is that not all disagreements are relevant or sensible; it's pointless to share some of your thoughts even though it's generally important to share thoughts with people close to you. So the problem in your situation depends partially on what kinds of things you are disagreeing with or saying "no" to.

I feel like what I'm saying is obvious, so I tried to phrase it so it doesn't seem like I'm talking down to you.



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01 Jun 2020, 11:17 am

roronoa79 wrote:
People always tell me that I should try to be more assertive and point out when I disagree or object to something someone did. This is, obviously, up until the moment I disagree with the person telling me that or object to something they did. Much like how when people say I should express my anger more, or when people say I should get better at saying "no", or when people say I shouldn't place so much importance on pleasing others.
They say these things up until the moment I express my anger with them. Or I say "no" to them. Or I stop placing so much importance on pleasing them. I struggle to think of a single person who has not verified this for me.
I do what people actually want to do, which is smile and nod and roll over whenever confrontations arise. No one wants disagreement. No one wants conflict. No one wants to be told no. No one wants to be asked to change. I'm just giving people what they really want, but if they learn I haven't been expressing my anger or disagreement, they get upset that I'm not being more open and honest. Openness and honesty are not what are wanted. Openness and honesty run the risk of showing me to be something besides what others want me to be. And people tend to want others to be they way they want others to be.



If you will be assertive, one thing you have to accept is that people will get nasty with you. However, there are some ways to assert yourself.

1. If someone tries to tell you what you they think and push you into their believing their views - quietly tell them you disagree with them.
2. If someone tries to put you on a guilt trip and because you have opposing views - "I have the right to my opinion" and if they want to argue, walk away. If it happens to be on social media, you can block them.
3. Also using comebacks for people like that such as "I feel sorry for you" and "I would appreciate it if those were your last comments on this topic."
4. If someone is pushing you around - "You don't get to talk to/ treat me this way because you feel like this or that way."
5. If someone tries to control you, they need to be told "No."



MyNameisNic
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02 Jun 2020, 3:16 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
People always tell me that I should try to be more assertive and point out when I disagree or object to something someone did. This is, obviously, up until the moment I disagree with the person telling me that or object to something they did. Much like how when people say I should express my anger more, or when people say I should get better at saying "no", or when people say I shouldn't place so much importance on pleasing others.
They say these things up until the moment I express my anger with them. Or I say "no" to them. Or I stop placing so much importance on pleasing them. I struggle to think of a single person who has not verified this for me.
I do what people actually want to do, which is smile and nod and roll over whenever confrontations arise. No one wants disagreement. No one wants conflict. No one wants to be told no. No one wants to be asked to change. I'm just giving people what they really want, but if they learn I haven't been expressing my anger or disagreement, they get upset that I'm not being more open and honest. Openness and honesty are not what are wanted. Openness and honesty run the risk of showing me to be something besides what others want me to be. And people tend to want others to be they way they want others to be.


You are absolutely correct. I am glad I am not alone in feeling this way; although I am sorry this is happening to you too. People want us to mask when they deem it to be appropriate and give some sign of openness to a degree of openness that they think is the right amount. If we venture out of their comfort zone in conversation, assertiveness, or even questions, it makes people either confrontational or makes them go away :cry: .


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MyNameisNic
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02 Jun 2020, 3:18 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s better to assert what you think is right in a diplomatic manner.

Make sure you assert what is right, without insulting a person you are debating with.


I have found that if the topic is too controversial or is a trigger for the other individual it is best just to agree and not debate it or to question their opinion based on logic or research. I have lost too many "friends" this way. I would ask with genuine curiosity in a way that is respectful and showing no ill intent. It doesn't matter. Some people are offended simply that you would ask or imply that their way is not the only way. For instance, recently I have asked why a "friend" has the opinion they have and what led to their conclusion so that I could better understand and be able to support their conclusion. The mere fact that I didn't inherently understand her position offended her and she won't speak to me. I kept reaching out, explaining in texts that I did not mean to offend her and that I just couldn't go along with something unless I understood it. Nothing.


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“Be the change you wish to see in the world.” -Buddha
"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!" -Alice in Wonderland
"I know that I know nothing." -Socrates

Diagnosed with ADHD, general anxiety disorder, chronic severe depression. In the process of obtaining an ASD diagnosis.

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Benjamin the Donkey
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03 Jun 2020, 9:04 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s better to assert what you think is right in a diplomatic manner.

Make sure you assert what is right, without insulting a person you are debating with.

The problem is that many people seem to find facts and logic insulting.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jun 2020, 6:42 am

If a person gets insulted merely because you don’t absolutely share your opinion, that person isn’t worth your friendship.

I feel like I’m headed for a divorce for that very same reason. My wife gets insulted if I don’t absolutely agree with her. It’s ridiculous.



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04 Jun 2020, 7:45 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
If a person gets insulted merely because you don’t absolutely share your opinion, that person isn’t worth your friendship.

I feel like I’m headed for a divorce for that very same reason. My wife gets insulted if I don’t absolutely agree with her. It’s ridiculous.

Maybe she's just nervous and under pressure.
Stress lowers everyone's emotional intellligence.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jun 2020, 7:58 am

It’s one of those situations where you had to “be there.”

She’s right 99% of the time when it comes to DIY things. It’s that 1% when she’s proven wrong which sets her off.



magz
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04 Jun 2020, 8:44 am

Being wrong stings...
The best way out of it is correct yourself, though.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jun 2020, 8:55 am

I always make concessions.....all the time.

In that situation, there was no reason why she should have yelled at me.



magz
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04 Jun 2020, 8:58 am

Maybe it was just emotions building up with the sting of wrongness being the final straw.
We're going through hard times globally and personally, it does affect our capacity to self-control.


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