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Axeman
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11 Sep 2021, 10:54 am

I've heard these substances make concentrated sulfuric acid look like a wimp being billions of times more acidic. How is this possible?



Axeman
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11 Sep 2021, 11:00 am

Substances like flouroantimonic acid.



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17 Sep 2021, 9:55 pm

it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


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Axeman
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17 Sep 2021, 10:05 pm

shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?



QuantumChemist
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18 Sep 2021, 8:22 pm

Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.



Axeman
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19 Sep 2021, 1:44 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Mixing any strong acid with water releases heat. That's chem lab safety 101. Add acid to water not the other way around.



Axeman
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19 Sep 2021, 1:53 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Ok I take it you are a chemist by trade. How do you even study such a substance? It would likely destroy any analytical equipment you tried using on it.



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19 Sep 2021, 12:47 pm

Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Mixing any strong acid with water releases heat. That's chem lab safety 101. Add acid to water not the other way around.


You would not want to mix this acid with water at all is what I was trying to say. It would boil the solution (and spray out of the container) under even the “add acid to water” rule unless done at a very, very slow rate. Yes, I know lab safety rules on acids quite well, as I am on a lab safety committee for a large university. I have been working hands-on with dangerous chemicals for more than thirty years.



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19 Sep 2021, 1:11 pm

Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Ok I take it you are a chemist by trade. How do you even study such a substance? It would likely destroy any analytical equipment you tried using on it.


You would study the products from reactions with it, rather than the acid directly. That would give clues on the properties of the acid. It would be the easiest way to learn about what causes it to act the way it does.

There are some forms of spectroscopy that could be done, but it will not be cheap to do any of them. IR spectroscopy can possibly be done using a diamond thin film window and a Teflon lid (or a diamond thin film lid). That apparatus assumes that the acid cannot directly attack diamond surfaces.

The catch is that the vapor could damage the outside of the metal instrument holder during the addition process if you are not careful. I do not know if ICP-MS could handle the sample directly. If you had a pure Teflon NMR tube, you might be able to do 1H NMR, but it would not be interesting to see. It would just show one peak for the acidic protons. I would not want to risk damaging the very expensive instrument for so little information.



Axeman
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19 Sep 2021, 1:16 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Mixing any strong acid with water releases heat. That's chem lab safety 101. Add acid to water not the other way around.


You would not want to mix this acid with water at all is what I was trying to say. It would boil the solution (and spray out of the container) under even the “add acid to water” rule unless done at a very, very slow rate. Yes, I know lab safety rules on acids quite well, as I am on a lab safety committee for a large university. I have been working hands-on with dangerous chemicals for more than thirty years.


Another of these super acids is sulfuric acid except one of the hydroxyl groups has been replaced with a chlorine atom. I'm wondering if the highly electronegative nature of halogen atoms is what makes these substances so acidic. They consume electron density allowing protons to more easily dissociate from the species.



Axeman
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19 Sep 2021, 1:22 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Ok I take it you are a chemist by trade. How do you even study such a substance? It would likely destroy any analytical equipment you tried using on it.


You would study the products from reactions with it, rather than the acid directly. That would give clues on the properties of the acid. It would be the easiest way to learn about what causes it to act the way it does.

There are some forms of spectroscopy that could be done, but it will not be cheap to do any of them. IR spectroscopy can possibly be done using a diamond thin film window and a Teflon lid (or a diamond thin film lid). That apparatus assumes that the acid cannot directly attack diamond surfaces.

The catch is that the vapor could damage the outside of the metal instrument holder during the addition process if you are not careful. I do not know if ICP-MS could handle the sample directly. If you had a pure Teflon NMR tube, you might be able to do 1H NMR, but it would not be interesting to see. It would just show one peak for the acidic protons. I would not want to risk damaging the very expensive instrument for so little information.


In other words with equipment made from materials that you hope will not be reactive with such a potent substance, and even then you will have problems because it's impossible to build the entire machine that way, only the parts that must come in direct contact with it.



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20 Sep 2021, 1:51 am

Ok heating it will cause it to break down into F2 gas which is also extremely destructive. Interesting.



Axeman
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23 Sep 2021, 2:24 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Axeman wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
it's made up of molecules which really, really badly want to get rid of a proton. That makes them highly reactive in a specific way which is called "acidic".

Acid, in chemistry, means a specific way of reacting with other molecules, (there's different definitions of acids). And fluoroantimonic acid is very, very likely ro react acidic (giving off a proton) with anything but teflon, meaning teflon won't take up the proton, so the acid has to keep it.


It's formula is SbHF6. It has only one proton to give up, same as HCl. And if I recall correctly from Chemistry 101 HCl dissociates completely in water solution. Of course this dissociation is really an equlibrium with some going back to HCl. Is it that this equlibrium is much less with something like SbHF6?


The chemical formula is technically SbHF6, but the actual structure is much more involved. It has complex ions that cause it to act like it does. See the link below for more specifics on the ionic structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid

You would not want to mix it with water, as it would cause a violent reaction involving release of thermal energy. Water vapor in the air can cause issues with it in this manner. I have handled large plastic bottles of HF), but I would not want to mess with this one much.

By the way - My favorite strong acid to make and use in lab is aqua regia. It can be used to dissolve precious metals like gold and platinum.


Ok I take it you are a chemist by trade. How do you even study such a substance? It would likely destroy any analytical equipment you tried using on it.


You would study the products from reactions with it, rather than the acid directly. That would give clues on the properties of the acid. It would be the easiest way to learn about what causes it to act the way it does.

There are some forms of spectroscopy that could be done, but it will not be cheap to do any of them. IR spectroscopy can possibly be done using a diamond thin film window and a Teflon lid (or a diamond thin film lid). That apparatus assumes that the acid cannot directly attack diamond surfaces.

The catch is that the vapor could damage the outside of the metal instrument holder during the addition process if you are not careful. I do not know if ICP-MS could handle the sample directly. If you had a pure Teflon NMR tube, you might be able to do 1H NMR, but it would not be interesting to see. It would just show one peak for the acidic protons. I would not want to risk damaging the very expensive instrument for so little information.


Youtube has videos of people actually messing with flouroantimonic acid. When dripped on cloth it eats right through leaving scorch marks. When dripped on flesh (a chicken leg from a grocery store) it eats right through. It also eats right through plastic gloves. It will etch glass, but slowly and much less vigorously than hydrogen flouride. It's shipped in a container made of a plastic composed of polyflouronated carbon molecules.



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03 Oct 2021, 8:25 am

As far as nasty fluids go check out piranha solution. 98% sulphuric mixed with 30% hydrogen peroxide. Great for eating up organic matter! Terrifying stuff you can make at home!! !


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03 Oct 2021, 9:44 am

ThisTimelessMoment wrote:
As far as nasty fluids go check out piranha solution. 98% sulphuric mixed with 30% hydrogen peroxide. Great for eating up organic matter! Terrifying stuff you can make at home!! !


I use that occasionally in lab for cleaning glassware. Between it and aqua Regia, those acids help get the glass to sparkle when used right with a strong base bath soak.

You likely cannot make full strength piranha at home without being licensed as a chemist to a chemical supplier for very good reasons. Large bottles of concentrated sulfuric acid is not commercially sold to just anyone (you need a license herein the US) and you would have to know where to get 30+% hydrogen peroxide (special laws apply again). Those little brown bottles of hydrogen peroxide that you can buy in a store are not concentrated enough to make it in full form. One can buy household cleaners that contain sulphuric acid, but again those are also diluted down in strength. The restriction laws are in place to keep those particular chemicals out of the wrong hands.



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03 Oct 2021, 10:04 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
ThisTimelessMoment wrote:
As far as nasty fluids go check out piranha solution. 98% sulphuric mixed with 30% hydrogen peroxide. Great for eating up organic matter! Terrifying stuff you can make at home!! !


I use that occasionally in lab for cleaning glassware. Between it and aqua Regia, those acids help get the glass to sparkle when used right with a strong base bath soak.

You likely cannot make full strength piranha at home without being licensed as a chemist to a chemical supplier for very good reasons. Large bottles of concentrated sulfuric acid is not commercially sold to just anyone (you need a license herein the US) and you would have to know where to get 30+% hydrogen peroxide (special laws apply again). Those little brown bottles of hydrogen peroxide that you can buy in a store are not concentrated enough to make it in full form. One can buy household cleaners that contain sulphuric acid, but again those are also diluted down in strength. The restriction laws are in place to keep those particular chemicals out of the wrong hands.


Those little brown bottles are 3 percent solutions and intended only as an antiseptic.