Page 1 of 1 [ 16 posts ] 

Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,932

05 Oct 2021, 7:00 pm

There have been many. One UK experiment I remember hearing about was with a class 47 that they went to convert it to run from coal dust. Coal dust was in plentiful supply here in the 1980's. This loco looked the same on the outside except that instead of being in B.R. blue livery it was black instead. I am not 100% sure, but I think its number was 47901? It may not be but I seemed to recall that number associated with the experiments?

Any other experimental locos anyone wants to add?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,866
Location: temperate zone

05 Oct 2021, 7:40 pm

Mommy and daddy told me that i was too young to hear about experimental locomotives! :lol:

Kidding. I think that you got confused, and posted this in the wrong subforum.



Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,932

05 Oct 2021, 7:49 pm

Ah. I was wondering which bit to put it in. Isn't this a general adult section?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,866
Location: temperate zone

05 Oct 2021, 7:57 pm

Here is an interesting locomotive. A steam turbine locomotive in Sweden that pulls heavy loads of timber. It uses the turbine to drive the wheels directly. In the US there were experiments with both direct drive steam turbines and with steam turbines to power electric generators that in turn powered electric motors to drive the train.


Notice how it makes more of whooshing sound, than a choo-choo sound.

During the Forties and Fifties the American Union Pacific railroad experimented with an amazing array of types of locomotive powerplants.

They used steam turbine driven electrics, and later gas turbine electrics (essentially jet engines hooked up to generators). But they also continued to use the most powerful types of old school steam piston locomotives: specifically the big boys, and the challengers. Just search "Union Pacific" on Utube. They did this because of the extreme mountains in the southwest US. Often they would use several locomotives on the same long train. And you would have jet powered locomotives, AND steam piston locomotives, together pulling the same train.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,866
Location: temperate zone

05 Oct 2021, 8:00 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Ah. I was wondering which bit to put it in. Isn't this a general adult section?


Dude...This section is "Adult" as in "Adult movie". Its for stuff not suitable for the kiddies, like frank talk about drugs, booze, and especially sex.

There is the other "In Depth Adult Life" section, but it doesnt fit there either because youre not talking about surviving in the world as a middle aged or older autistic.

This is a general interest topic. So it would go in "random conversation", or it might go in the "Science and Technology" Section.

Its too bad that there isnt a "special interest" forum on this website for stuff like this.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,866
Location: temperate zone

05 Oct 2021, 8:34 pm



Fenn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Sep 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,217
Location: Pennsylvania

06 Oct 2021, 2:18 pm

I think these experimental locomotive type vehicles are interesting:

Image


_________________
ADHD-I(diagnosed) ASD-HF(undiagnosed - maybe)
RDOS scores - Aspie score 131/200 - neurotypical score 69/200 - very likely Aspie


Last edited by Fenn on 06 Oct 2021, 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Velorum
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2020
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,248
Location: UK

06 Oct 2021, 2:23 pm

Sorry, I dont mean to take this off on too much a tangent but whenever I see a thread like this I think of my brothers Hornby trainset - something that I coveted as a child. I can still recall the smell of the electrified rails.

Ive never been tempted to buy a trainset despite their almost hypnotic allure - mainly due to space. I have looked at those ultra small scale ones where the layout fits in a suitcase or even briefcase - they are so expensive. I first saw one on Blue Peter in the late 60's.


_________________
Autistic member of the neurodivergent community


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,866
Location: temperate zone

06 Oct 2021, 3:45 pm

Velorum wrote:
Sorry, I dont mean to take this off on too much a tangent but whenever I see a thread like this I think of my brothers Hornby trainset - something that I coveted as a child. I can still recall the smell of the electrified rails.

Ive never been tempted to buy a trainset despite their almost hypnotic allure - mainly due to space. I have looked at those ultra small scale ones where the layout fits in a suitcase or even briefcase - they are so expensive. I first saw one on Blue Peter in the late 60's.


Worse than touching a crack pipe!

Just to be...a bad influence on you...and to help lure you into the vortex of addiction and ruin that is model trains...

here are two awesomely cool real trains racing through some awesome American Western landscape! :lol:



Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,932

06 Oct 2021, 4:07 pm

Velorum wrote:
Sorry, I dont mean to take this off on too much a tangent but whenever I see a thread like this I think of my brothers Hornby trainset - something that I coveted as a child. I can still recall the smell of the electrified rails.

Ive never been tempted to buy a trainset despite their almost hypnotic allure - mainly due to space. I have looked at those ultra small scale ones where the layout fits in a suitcase or even briefcase - they are so expensive. I first saw one on Blue Peter in the late 60's.


I have a solution to the three main difficulties faced to many which are:-
1. Lack of space.
2. Too expensive.
3. Too small.

Have you considered 0-16.5 which is the British equivalent of 7mm Narrow Gauge?
I have been using this scale and gauge for over a decade now.

A brief thread about the advantages.

https://modelrailwayforum.co.uk/viewtop ... uge#p35999



Fenn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Sep 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,217
Location: Pennsylvania

06 Oct 2021, 8:50 pm

You could put a shelf 1 foot from the ceiling on every wall and set up a G scale train or O scale train. No floor space needed at all.


_________________
ADHD-I(diagnosed) ASD-HF(undiagnosed - maybe)
RDOS scores - Aspie score 131/200 - neurotypical score 69/200 - very likely Aspie


Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,932

06 Oct 2021, 8:57 pm

Fenn wrote:
You could put a shelf 1 foot from the ceiling on every wall and set up a G scale train or O scale train. No floor space needed at all.


What I model in is in 0 scale except that it runs on 00/H0 track. (00 and H0 share the same track gauge width of 16.5mm, hence why British 0 scale using 00 gauge width is called 0-16.5).



DeepHour
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,097
Location: United Kingdom

10 Oct 2021, 2:26 am

APT-E, the experimental version of the UK's 'Advanced Passenger Train' was tried out on the railway system during the 1970s, beginning in 1972. It was designed as a 'tilting' train, enabling it to negotiate curved sections of track at higher speeds than a conventional locomotive, and was capable of speeds of around 150mph.

APT-P, the 'prototype' version was introduced on a limited number of services from about 1981-86, but didn't prove successful, and the project was scrapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train



_________________
On a mountain range
I'm Doctor Strange


Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,932

10 Oct 2021, 5:13 am

DeepHour wrote:
APT-E, the experimental version of the UK's 'Advanced Passenger Train' was tried out on the railway system during the 1970s, beginning in 1972. It was designed as a 'tilting' train, enabling it to negotiate curved sections of track at higher speeds than a conventional locomotive, and was capable of speeds of around 150mph.

APT-P, the 'prototype' version was introduced on a limited number of services from about 1981-86, but didn't prove successful, and the project was scrapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train




APT...

It may sound strange to some that it was actually scrapped for political reasons.
They made a small fleet of them. Obviohsly they were not cheap to make as we are talking millions of pounds, but they knew that. Obviously there would be a few teething troubles, as I know for a fact that all new designs of locomotive will have components re-designed a fair few times to improve on their reliability and functionality, and these redesigns can take ten years or more to do.

The issue here was that British Railways was in the hands of the government, and that they had already spent a lot of money on the project. It had gone over budget which is understandable because it was groundbreaking new technology at the time, but it dis actually work, as someone I knew went on one when he was a kid as his father worked for the railways, and he showed me photographs of the inside looking outside as the train was tilting going round the corners.
The same technology was going to be used on other trains as well, as the body shape of class 158's and 159's which themselves were in the early stages of development had this in mind, hence why they slope inwards slightly so they would not hit anything when tilting.

Now they discovered a fault that would not have taken a lot to fix. Large bolts used in the tilting mechanism were a bit too long and were on occasions, and at certain angles not allowing the trains to tilt like they should.

Thw Conservatives were in power in those days with Margaret Thatcher, and they had already come under extreme pressure by Niel Kinnock who was the head of the main opposing Labour party for the overspending on the project. The overspend was not actually a lot in the percentage of the product as a whole, but it was after all, taxpayers money and Labour, being in opposition, were keen to do all they could to raise awareness about this overspend.
I seem to recall it would have cost them a hundred and fourty thousand to put it right, which is very little in comparisson to the project.
The UK press then got hold of the story and made a big thing about it. In the history of the press in the UK they have had a very pro Labour and anti Conservative swing to them (I even noticed this pattern as a child and I had no interest in politics! It was as if Niel Kinnock could do no wrong and Margaret Thatcher was always in the wrong!) Anyway. The result of the press getting involved was that even though one of the trains was put right out of the fleet (I believe there were about thirty trains made?) to demonstrate that the fault would not cost much to be corrected, the media outcry and public oppinion stirred up by the media and the Labour party took hold. This was seen as a Conservative project, even though its origions were when Labour were in power, and the whole project was scrapped. All the trains except the one that aas corrected headed for the scrap yard, and that was the end of the Advanced Passenger Train.

The one train that survived I believe became owned by Richard Branson(?), and part of the stipulation to the new owner that the unit would never be used on the railway network again, as by then Labour were coming in power and to the Conservatives the train was an embarissment because they had to back down, and Labour did not want the public to know that the train was a success, as they had launched a campaign to stop the overspending on the project and they did not want the public to know that the scrapped project could have been a success, so they did not want the remaining train to be seen, as it would be embarissing to them if it was seen working. So for a decade or two the brand new train was sitting in a partially overgrown siding, unloved and started to look in a sorry state.
Fortunately years later it has survived and is now part of a museum collection.

The history of the development of the APT is quite an interesting one as it rus parallel to the history of the HST or "High Speed Train" and the HST was an advancement and a replacement of the old Pullman Diesel trains which were similar looking streamlined trains with a cab at both ends and their coaches sandwiched inbetween.
The real test prototype of the APT had a gas turbine engine and a train driver I know was wating on a platform for his next train to work, and this test train came through, and he said the noise of it coming through left everyone with their hands over their ears. He said it sounded like a jet aircraft was passing through!

For the UK, gas turbine engines have been tried a few times but the UK has a lot of stopping and starting, and while they work and run ok, and do exert more power to the wheels then a conve tional diesel electric does for a similar size, the problem with gas turbinss is that they end up overall being moee expensice to run, because when standing waiting at a signal, their enginss are still running at peak power due to the nature of their design.
They were able to make them a success in the USA because the USA has much longer runs and they had long descents where as I understand they had a mechanism which could shut the engines down to save fuel while descending? I maybe wrong in this.
But here for the UK they used too much fuel to be of any practical value and several designs were tried, and this origional prototype being the last.
The APT's we remember were the electric versions taking their 25,000 volts supply from roof mounted pantographs.



DeepHour
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,097
Location: United Kingdom

10 Oct 2021, 6:12 am

Interesting reminiscences and thoughts, MG!

My own recollections differ slightly from yours in the matter of the media coverage of the APT debacle in the 1980s. Most of the newspapers, with the exception of the Guardian and Daily Mirror, were strongly Thatcherite at the time, and my impression was that the hostile coverage of the APT project was part of their politically-motivated animosity to British Rail as a state-owned enterprise, and not to the Tory government. Their relentless viciousness towards BR in the 70s and 80s just had to be experienced to be believed! They couldn't let go of anything, like a dog with a bone, and even obsessed endlessly over things like the BR sandwiches on the trains. Needless to say, the activities of the two main rail unions, the NUR (under Sid Weighell) and ASLEF (led by Ray Buckton) were also a red rag to a bull....

The problem with APT that sticks in my mind was one with the train's brakes, and involved a brake-fluid called 'Amala' or something of the sort. As braking is obviously a safety issue, it caused the trains to be withdrawn from service for an extended period, and that may well have been what caused the Thatcher government to lose patience with the whole thing and cut off funding.

HST (Inter-City 125) was a different matter entirely, and a huge success. My first experience of one of these trains was when waiting on the platform at Didcot station in Oxfordshire in the autumn of 1976. The approaching HST was audible from at least a quarter of a mile away, and you could hear the air crackle all around as the train passed through the station. I'd never seen or heard anything like it!

First ride on an HST was a trip from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads in the early summer of 1977. The train covered the 77 miles between Paddington and Swindon (first stop) in 45 minutes, a performance which would still be highly impressive even today. The ride was silky smooth, and the only noise you could hear inside the carriage was the slight whispering of the air outside as it was displaced. You would never hear about just how amazing these trains were in the horrible anti-BR media though.

I don't use the trains these days at all. Privatization has killed all the magic and made the whole business of rail travel in the UK ridiculously expensive.

:cry:


_________________
On a mountain range
I'm Doctor Strange


PhosphorusDecree
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 May 2016
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,499
Location: Yorkshire, UK

19 Oct 2021, 4:50 pm

I was just watching a video about one of the more bonkers early experiments in electrified railways.... I believe I've actually seen the remains of the track supports on the beach, though I didn't know what they were at the time!


_________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.