Thread derailment! Sound the alarms! Danger!

Page 6 of 10 [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Cornflake
Administrator
Administrator

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 58,930
Location: Over there

08 Aug 2022, 9:27 pm

Fnord wrote:
How about a thread set up or hijacked specifically to draw attention to one member or mod against whom many false accusations are subsequently made within that thread?
Ding ding ding ding.


_________________
Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 9:37 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Ding ding ding ding.


You should really re-read this thread from the beginning, and then point out when you think it was hijacked and by whom.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 9:47 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Again, that's your characterisation. I don't stretch rules to please anyone, but I might use my discretion when dealing with something which may result in a dilution of a rule.


Ok then, how would you characterize receiving a rude PM and a board warning for conduct that had never previously been considered against the rules, followed by further attempts to construe anodyne comments as forbidden personal attacks?

Cornflake wrote:
I would think Fnord might have something to say about being lied about... He's taken quite a hit in this thread, one way or another.


Aside from his reputation being what he himself has made it over the years, I've not told any lies about him, the worst you can say is that I've been uncharitable in ascribing motives to him, but even with that I've provided my reasoning. I've actually held back quite a bit in making that case, as that truly would be a massive derailment of the thread (I did not intend to turn it into a referendum on Fnord until I was charged with this bogus personal attack claim, as the early thread history should make clear), and frankly it would just look stalkerish to break out the links and screenshots, as well as petty.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 9:51 pm

Fnord wrote:
Take this thread, for instance . . .


Ever notice how you make a lot of comments like this very one in threads where your opinion is on the losing side of the argument? I've noticed, I've even drawn certain conclusions about it, and while those conclusions may in fact be off base as I'm not a mind reader, the pattern is suggestive.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Cornflake
Administrator
Administrator

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 58,930
Location: Over there

08 Aug 2022, 9:58 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Again, that's your characterisation. I don't stretch rules to please anyone, but I might use my discretion when dealing with something which may result in a dilution of a rule.


Ok then, how would you characterize receiving a rude PM and a board warning for conduct that had never previously been considered against the rules, followed by further attempts to construe anodyne comments as forbidden personal attacks?
That's something of a lurch onto a different topic and set of accusations, but I disagree that it was rude and having been skinned alive once for simply referencing a PM I'd sent, I'm going no further with it here.

Quote:
Aside from his reputation being what he himself has made it over the years, I've not told any lies about him, the worst you can say is that I've been uncharitable in ascribing motives to him, but even with that I've provided my reasoning. I've actually held back quite a bit in making that case, as that truly would be a massive derailment of the thread (I did not intend to turn it into a referendum on Fnord until I was charged with this bogus personal attack claim, as the early thread history should make clear), and frankly it would just look stalkerish to break out the links and screenshots, as well as petty.
"I refer the honorable gentleman ...", etc. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=407898&start=64#p9105806


_________________
Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 10:19 pm

Cornflake wrote:
"I refer the honorable gentleman ...", etc. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=407898&start=64#p9105806


Like I said previously, me facetiously pointing out someone violating what they claim the rules are is very different than me actually making reports and trying to get people punished for said conduct.

Okay, leave the PM out of it, how am I supposed to react to being penalized for for conduct that hasn't previously been prohibited?


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 10:37 pm

Just to add, I've been here a loooooong time, all of it spent knowing I have a target on my back due to my views and style, and that has inculcated a certain caution in me regarding what and how I post, as I know there are plenty of people watching and waiting for me to give them a reason to get me in trouble. Do I resent that? Absolutely, and that creeps into my posts from time to time, but it's the nature of the beast, and I've said as much to many, many moderators over the years while trying to make them aware of the board dynamics in the politics and news boards where I spend the majority of my time here.

Where I have a problem is when the rules are changed beneath me, particularly when those rules seem to be applied selectively, such as coming after me for implying motives to other posters who themselves frequently assign motives to others, such as accusations of deliberate derailing and deflection. I'm quintessentially autistic in that regard, tell me what the rules are and apply them consistently and fairly and I won't have a problem, but use a different set for me and I'm going to make some noise about it.

Contrary to my reputation, I don't like fighting with mods in public, it's a waste of time as the rules are so arbitrary and wide that they can make them whatever they want, but I'm also unwilling to back down just because I'm told to, and the only real tool available to me then is to make a public stink and try to exert some public pressure. As I've said before, I'm extremely sympathetic to volunteer moderators dealing with a difficult group of people, and I've put significant effort over the years into helping out when and where I can identifying prolific trolls and sockpuppets, helping to craft guidelines and policies, pointing out potential flare ups and hot spots before they erupt, etc, and that probably contributes to my level of frustration when I feel the loose rules are being weaponized against me.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


VegetableMan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,208
Location: Illinois

08 Aug 2022, 10:38 pm

I think at the heart of this issue is a poltical climate that prohibits expanding the conservation to how we actually got here.

I brought up disinformation in other media sources in the Alex Jones thread.

" No! We're frothing at the mouth over AJ! Take your thoughts to another thread!"

I bring up the connection to how we wound up with Trump as president for four years...

"No! We're frothing at the mouth over Trump in this thread! Go away!"

It's very frustrating!

It is an unfortunate component of partisan politics because those in power don't want the dots connected. They just want keep people divided and raging at one side or another rather than the whole machine.


_________________
What do you call a hot dog in a gangster suit?

Oscar Meyer Lansky


Last edited by VegetableMan on 08 Aug 2022, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 24,148
Location: UK

08 Aug 2022, 10:44 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Just to add, I've been here a loooooong time, all of it spent knowing I have a target on my back due to my views and style, and that has inculcated a certain caution in me regarding what and how I post, as I know there are plenty of people watching and waiting for me to give them a reason to get me in trouble. Do I resent that? Absolutely, and that creeps into my posts from time to time, but it's the nature of the beast, and I've said as much to many, many moderators over the years while trying to make them aware of the board dynamics in the politics and news boards where I spend the majority of my time here.

Where I have a problem is when the rules are changed beneath me, particularly when those rules seem to be applied selectively, such as coming after me for implying motives to other posters who themselves frequently assign motives to others, such as accusations of deliberate derailing and deflection. I'm quintessentially autistic in that regard, tell me what the rules are and apply them consistently and fairly and I won't have a problem, but use a different set for me and I'm going to make some noise about it.

Contrary to my reputation, I don't like fighting with mods in public, it's a waste of time as the rules are so arbitrary and wide that they can make them whatever they want, but I'm also unwilling to back down just because I'm told to, and the only real tool available to me then is to make a public stink and try to exert some public pressure. As I've said before, I'm extremely sympathetic to volunteer moderators dealing with a difficult group of people, and I've put significant effort over the years into helping out when and where I can identifying prolific trolls and sockpuppets, helping to craft guidelines and policies, pointing out potential flare ups and hot spots before they erupt, etc, and that probably contributes to my level of frustration when I feel the loose rules are being weaponized against me.


We really need a thread for misunderstood people like me and you. Actually, saying that, the site probably won't let us have a thread like that. We've just got to shut up and keep our opinions to ourselves.


_________________
Female
Aged 32

Diagnosed with ADHD
Have Anxiety Disorder
Diagnosed with mild ASD but I don't identify as autistic


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 10:47 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
I think at the heart of this issue is a poltical climate that prohibits expanding the conservation to how we actually got here.

I brought up disinformation in other media sources in the Alex Jones thread.

" No! We're frothing at the mouth over AJ! Take your thoughts to another thread!"

I bring up the connection to how we wound up with Trump as president for four years...

"No! We're frothing at the mouth over Trump in this thread! Go away!"

It's very frustrating!


Exactly, if you try to introduce nuance into the conversation you get accused of trolling, derailing, deflecting, etc, and if you start to win the argument, the calls for a thread lock start.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


VegetableMan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,208
Location: Illinois

08 Aug 2022, 10:52 pm

Yeah, nuance ain't something that is well represented in politics these days.


_________________
What do you call a hot dog in a gangster suit?

Oscar Meyer Lansky


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 11:03 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Yeah, nuance ain't something that is well represented in politics these days.


I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't actively resented, people get actively angry when you puncture their simplistic views.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,856
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Aug 2022, 11:05 pm

Joe90 wrote:
We really need a thread for misunderstood people like me and you. Actually, saying that, the site probably won't let us have a thread like that. We've just got to shut up and keep our opinions to ourselves.


There's an irony there, people who call for tolerance being the most intolerant of opposing views, a site for people who don't fit in actively ejecting people who don't fit a certain ideological range, etc.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,223
Location: Reading, England

09 Aug 2022, 3:18 am

Not going to respond to any individual points, because Jesus Christ, I’m not sure what anyone thinks they’re achieving.

In general, if you have an issue with moderation, then posting about it here seems fine. But don’t bring individual users into it. If you do wish to present a “case against” a user (for example, evidence that they are an alt account of a previously banned user, or that they engage in a pattern of persistent low-level rule breaking), do so in private.

In general, I’m in favour of letting threads wander, within reason. Sometimes “please get back on topic” is a less confrontational way of defusing a situation that has occurred when a thread has wandered.

I understand the frustration some people feel when every topic gets steered towards being about Trump or the mainstream media. That said, I feel users should know to expect a certain amount of “drift” in the topic. This is an autism site, after all - people will tend to raise their special interests whenever they get the smallest opportunity. In the specific context of the Alex Jones thread, it seems like “is Alex Jones worse than the mainstream media?” is a reasonable question to ask, even if I’d personally come to a very different conclusion to the people asking the question.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,629
Location: New York City (Queens)

21 Aug 2022, 4:49 am

Dox47 wrote:
It's definitely selectively enforced, and ironically often used as a way to make difficult questions go away rather than keeping things on "topic".

"Difficult questions" are in fact a bigger thread derail (i.e. a bigger and more persistant distraction from the original topic) than less attention-grabbing tangents. "Difficult questions" should be discussed in their own threads IMO.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 21 Aug 2022, 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,629
Location: New York City (Queens)

21 Aug 2022, 5:00 am

Joe90 wrote:
People don't really want to create a thread just for it to get derailed on to a completely different topic. It can be frustrating for the OP.

I strongly agree.

And it can be frustrating not only to the OP, but also to users (like me) who spend relatively little time here. I don't usually have time to read more than a few threads that have especially interesting (to me) titles. So I want the titles to be -- and remain -- a reasonably accurate representation of what the thread is actually about.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)