Page 1 of 4 [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

DeathFlowerKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2022
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,761
Location: City of Roses

30 Nov 2022, 11:56 pm

Do you guys think that at this point the right wing extremists are winning here in the U.S. of a***holes?



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,254
Location: Seattle-ish

01 Dec 2022, 4:11 am

In before the parade of those who don't know that "fascism" means something besides "political group I don't like", let alone that it's much more applicable to today's Democrats than to the GOP given the public/private power alliance they've got going on.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Last edited by magz on 01 Dec 2022, 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.: sweeping insult removed

magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 4:59 am

The historical fascists did not become villains because of their approach to economy.
Nor because of their taste in arts and fashion. Nor because of their use of ancient symbols. Nor because of their dubious classifications as right- or left-wingers.
None of the above made them the historical villains of the 20th century.

It was something else.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,254
Location: Seattle-ish

01 Dec 2022, 5:45 am

magz wrote:
The historical fascists did not become villains because of their approach to economy.
Nor because of their taste in arts and fashion. Nor because of their use of ancient symbols. Nor because of their dubious classifications as right- or left-wingers.
None of the above made them the historical villains of the 20th century.

It was something else.


What's your point?


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 5:48 am

That "public/private power alliance" is irrelevant to what is dangerous about possible rise of fascism (btw, Italian and German fascism differed in this a lot).
And, to be fair, being classified as "right wing" is also not what is relevant.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,658
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

01 Dec 2022, 6:05 am

Fascism is not some right wing equivalent of Communism. The only formal definition of Fascism would be the platform of the Italian Fascist Party 100 years ago. Otherwise the term tends to be used as an epithet.

If I had to give a definition I would say it's the promotion of authority for its own sake. I could argue the Hungarian government is fascist (small "f") although it doesn't claim that title for itself.


_________________
My WP story


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 6:12 am

AFAIK, even specialists argue on what exactly constitutes "fascism" in meanings other than strictly historical.

I believe cult of the leader is a substantial factor but not sufficient alone.

I believe fear of "rise of fascism" is fear of rise of a system of repression, state-organized brutality, state-supported hate, war and mass attrocities.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,658
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

01 Dec 2022, 7:23 am

magz wrote:
I believe cult of the leader is a substantial factor but not sufficient alone.

I think it's a major factor and one could argue everything else follows from that. In the US, supporters of Donald Trump believe he is the rightful ruler and anyone who opposes him is a traitor. Therefore any means used to restore him to the Presidency is justified. Basically worship of unquestionable authority. Meaning those who flout that authority must be punished, justifying brute force, atrocities, etc.


_________________
My WP story


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,254
Location: Seattle-ish

01 Dec 2022, 7:25 am

magz wrote:
I believe fear of "rise of fascism" is fear of rise of a system of repression, state-organized brutality, state-supported hate, war and mass attrocities.


Then say that rather than lazily flinging around an epithet with no real meaning anymore, other than to signal to the reader that nothing of value is about to be said.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,254
Location: Seattle-ish

01 Dec 2022, 7:29 am

MaxE wrote:
In the US, supporters of Donald Trump believe he is the rightful ruler and anyone who opposes him is a traitor. Therefore any means used to restore him to the Presidency is justified.


The fact that you and people like you are still alive and able to elect your own politicians suggests that the attitude you're projecting only applies to a tiny minority of Trump supporters, the vast majority of them are quite boring and normal.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,658
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

01 Dec 2022, 7:34 am

Dox47 wrote:
MaxE wrote:
In the US, supporters of Donald Trump believe he is the rightful ruler and anyone who opposes him is a traitor. Therefore any means used to restore him to the Presidency is justified.


The fact that you and people like you are still alive and able to elect your own politicians suggests that the attitude you're projecting only applies to a tiny minority of Trump supporters, the vast majority of them are quite boring and normal.

This has been true in every fascist scenario.


_________________
My WP story


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 7:38 am

Dox47 wrote:
magz wrote:
I believe fear of "rise of fascism" is fear of rise of a system of repression, state-organized brutality, state-supported hate, war and mass attrocities.
Then say that rather than lazily flinging around an epithet with no real meaning anymore, other than to signal to the reader that nothing of value is about to be said.
Ahem - I just did? So, once we explained what me mean by various terms, can we adress the essence?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,168
Location: Queens, NYC

01 Dec 2022, 7:38 am

We have to be prepared for the potential repressive, “fascistic” type situations.

We are still a democracy with relative freedom….but there are forces which seek to overthrow this.

We must be vigilant and aware of this potential. Otherwise, we will be swept and inundated by the forces of reactionaries.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 7:44 am

MaxE wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
the vast majority of them are quite boring and normal.
This has been true in every fascist scenario.
Without support of the "boring and normal", fringe ideologies stay just fringe ideologies, not really influencing the reality.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,659
Location: Poland

01 Dec 2022, 7:46 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
We have to be prepared for the potential repressive, “fascistic” type situations.

We are still a democracy with relative freedom….but there are forces which seek to overthrow this.

We must be vigilant and aware of this potential. Otherwise, we will be swept and inundated by the forces of reactionaries.
The example I cannot stop thinking about is Putin's Russia.
They have come to the level of repressions, war and mass attrocities.
How? What processes led to it? Where have they missed or ignored the red flags?
It took them about 20 years. Each year, there might have been a chance to stop and turn around but it was not used.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


usagibryan
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2020
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 270
Location: Florida

01 Dec 2022, 7:47 am

No, I think they are losing, they know they've lost the culture war, that's why they are lashing out like a cornered animal. Unfortunately the political system is rigged in their favor, we aren't a true democracy if our government doesn't reflect the people. If BS like the electoral college didn't exist Democrats would win every election with the way the parties are aligned now, Republicans would be forced to move more to the center to stay relevant.

I do think also, and maybe this is because of the internet and people living in their bubbles, that they've gotten way more bold and regressed in some ways because within their own social circles their beliefs aren't as taboo as they used to be compared to the larger culture. American culture has moved on and become more liberal but pockets of conservatism have moved in the opposite direction, and so we are way more polarized. Lately I've been shock at how they've regressed to pre-Obama years levels of homophobia. They are using the word "groomer" to describe LGBT education. WTF.


_________________
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age"