The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

Page 17 of 21 [ 335 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21  Next

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,507

06 Dec 2022, 12:54 am

carlos55 wrote:
Think this thread discussion is going around in circles & getting silly, could have been wrapped up in a few posts rather than 16 pages!

The current Ukraine war is discussed elsewhere


And the reason its going in circles is because there is a lack of transparency over the purpose of this thread.
I have posited already that the experience of women in Berlin in 1945 at the hands of then Soviet soldiers deserves its own thread,

The OP has instead chosen to link this to Putin and Ukraine in 2022.

I gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.

However, I have pointed out that Russia has hardly been allowed to develop democracy and so under various autocrats has never been compelled to demilitarise so when you have a authoritarian regime with a despotic leadership who are armed to to the teeth then the current incursion into Ukraine is hardly that surprising.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,566
Location: Poland

06 Dec 2022, 2:07 am

carlos55 wrote:
The USSR was made up of 15 states of which Ukraine has quite a high position of power compared to the other 13 by comparison, so if Russia apologizes what about some of the Ukrainian decision makers are they expected to apologize too if not why?
Only Russia claims to be the successor of USSR - the rest claim they have gained independence from it. It's not about ethnicity of various leaders (ethnicity can be much more fluid here than in English-speaking world), it's about the political system.

cyberdad wrote:
I gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.
Yes. Thank you for getting this message.

cyberdad wrote:
However, I have pointed out that Russia has hardly been allowed to develop democracy and so under various autocrats has never been compelled to demilitarise so when you have a authoritarian regime with a despotic leadership who are armed to to the teeth then the current incursion into Ukraine is hardly that surprising.
"Allowed" by whom? By... citizens who kept voting for a dictator since 2000?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,384

06 Dec 2022, 2:35 am

Quote:
. gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.


The point I was making is why at the time from their point of view should only Russia allow itself to be accountable for war crimes?

If other allies were committing war crimes too?

Polands invasion of Czechoslovakia?

British bombing of Dresden

British bombing of the famous dam

US dropping two nukes on civilian areas

And many more

And there have been war crimes since:

Was the US poisoning of Vietnam with agent orange , bombing their villages with B52’s not a war crime?

Was the US bombing of Iraqi civilian infrastructure like Russia is doing now not a war crime?

Also unless the order is given to rape at the president or chief of staff level (which is a literal instruction and provable) it becomes a criminal individual soldier / officer issue the country itself is rarely held to account unless in the form of negligence of command.


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,566
Location: Poland

06 Dec 2022, 2:57 am

Everyone should be held accountable proportionally to their sins.
And in every case, a question is to be asked: have they learned from their past to not repeat it?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,893
Location: Australia

06 Dec 2022, 5:05 am

magz wrote:
AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".


The Wehrmacht wasn't a great fan of the SS, btw.
They considered them a parade army. “Asphalt soldiers”.
Quote:
Although they were derisively dismissed as Himmler’s “asphalt soldiers” by the OKW high command, the troops of the Waffen-SS were superbly equipped and tended to have high morale.
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht, but it accounted for nearly one-fourth of Germany’s panzer divisions and roughly one-third of the Wehrmacht’s panzer grenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wehrmacht

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.
Ironically, in the beginning, only those without a criminal record could join the LSSAH/SS.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,893
Location: Australia

06 Dec 2022, 5:30 am

carlos55 wrote:
magz wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
magz wrote:
What I was trying to tell, was that the Nazi Germany was evil but Soviet Russia did not pale compared to them. It was the same kind of mass homicidal regime, differently flavored, so to say. You know that in 1930s, Germans voted for nazis because they found them lesser evil than communists?
But the crimes of the Nazi Germany were held against them yet the crimes of Soviet Russia were denied and silenced. This is the main difference between the two - and I believe it contributes greatly to the difference between what Germany and Russia are today.


Yes I agree the only reason for that maybe was that in 1945 those Germans still alive that did those crimes i.e the leadership class were still alive.

By 1990 most of the WW2 leadership class in Russia were dead.

Russians are famous for their low life expectancy (usually caused by alcohol) so anyone over 35 ( min age someone gets to serious decisions post ) they would have been 80 by then.

Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones

You're still not getting it.
1. Rapes committed by Soviet soldiers weren't random incidents, they were practically a policy (as supported by memories of a Russian soldier I quoted);
2. It's far from the only attrocity of the Soviet state;
3. Why were Germans judged starting in 1945 but Russians had to wait until 1990s, if anything? Do you get any idea of how it was to live for over 4 decades being forbidden to even talk about the trauma in your family?
4. It's still important to be aware of it, just like it's still important to be aware of e.g. horrors of trans-Atlantic slave trade, even if no one directly involved is alive today - because the impact is still there and being forced to be quiet about it makes it worse.


The USSR was a dictatorship and unoccupied where Germany was militarily defeated and occupied

Here’s some other probable reasons:-

1. The USSR was made up of 15 states of which Ukraine has quite a high position of power compared to the other 13 by comparison, so if Russia apologizes what about some of the Ukrainian decision makers are they expected to apologize too if not why?

2. Most of the worst crimes of the USSR happened in the early to mid 20th century the crimes since then diminished in size and magnitude after Stalins death

3. It’s controversial on how far a country or citizens who live there are responsible for the actions of a dictatorship does Iraq apologize for Saddam Hussein? Should Iraqis somehow get blamed for his invasion of Iran or Kuwait?

4. Like I said those senior decision makers responsible of stuff in 1940’s and 50’s were likely dead

5. Did Russians themselves not suffer under Stalin or USSR? was it a paradise there? was you not just as likely to get a knock at the door from the secret police if you lived in Moscow as opposed to E Berlin? In which case why apologize if your the victim yourself?

6. Is anyone else apologizing and being prosecuted as well for stuff their country did in living memory, is the US apologizing for helping S American dictatorships that tortured there people, did US apologize for bombing Vietnam villages, spraying agent orange poisoning the place. Did they apologize for using depleted Uranium in desert storm in 1990 that caused birth defects.

I believe US Secretary of State Madeline Albright said a million Iraqi kids dying from sanctions was a price worth paying and she only died a year or so I believe.

So everyone apologizes and is brought to justice which I think is good.

But still waiting for Tony Blair to apologize and be prosecuted for lying about Iraq war. Don’t think that will happen soon :cry:


WTF?
This thread is about what happened during WWII.
It is also about the "Russian Heroic Tradition" of raping civilians.
I think you are going "off point". ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,507

06 Dec 2022, 5:39 am

magz wrote:
"Allowed" by whom? By... citizens who kept voting for a dictator since 2000?


I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.

I don't think his incursions into Ukraine will be sustainable and Russian people will feel the pain either through increasing numbers of mothers losing their sons or through the rising cost of living due to international sanctions.

Eventually either or he or his successor (he is very sick) will be drawn to the negotiation table and cut their losses.



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,162
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

06 Dec 2022, 7:40 am

carlos55 wrote:
Quote:
. gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.


The point I was making is why at the time from their point of view should only Russia allow itself to be accountable for war crimes?

If other allies were committing war crimes too?

Polands invasion of Czechoslovakia?

British bombing of Dresden

British bombing of the famous dam

US dropping two nukes on civilian areas

And many more

And there have been war crimes since:

Was the US poisoning of Vietnam with agent orange , bombing their villages with B52’s not a war crime?

Was the US bombing of Iraqi civilian infrastructure like Russia is doing now not a war crime?

Also unless the order is given to rape at the president or chief of staff level (which is a literal instruction and provable) it becomes a criminal individual soldier / officer issue the country itself is rarely held to account unless in the form of negligence of command.

For anyone to be held accountable for war crimes, two things have to happen.

First of all, something has to be defined as a war crime to begin with. Rape is arguably a war crime. Dropping nukes on Japan at the time it happened was not a war crime.

Second, belligerents are required to demonstrate military superiority in order to enforce penalties. Would Nuremberg have happened if Germany had won?



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,893
Location: Australia

06 Dec 2022, 7:45 am

AngelRho wrote:
Rape is arguably a war crime.


So cute.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,566
Location: Poland

06 Dec 2022, 8:18 am

cyberdad wrote:
I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.
Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,384

06 Dec 2022, 8:49 am

I’m all for Russia being held accountable for any war crimes in WW2 and now but my point is why just Russia?

I understand a million Armenians died at the hands of Turkey in a type of holocaust in the 20th century but no one seems bothered about that.


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,566
Location: Poland

06 Dec 2022, 8:52 am

carlos55 wrote:
I’m all for Russia being held accountable for any war crimes in WW2 and now but my point is why just Russia?

I understand a million Armenians died at the hands of Turkey in a type of holocaust in the 20th century but no one seems bothered about that.

Actually, the very OP, in the very this thread... viewtopic.php?f=20&t=409725&start=160#p9181978


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,384

06 Dec 2022, 8:54 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".


The Wehrmacht wasn't a great fan of the SS, btw.
They considered them a parade army. “Asphalt soldiers”.
Quote:
Although they were derisively dismissed as Himmler’s “asphalt soldiers” by the OKW high command, the troops of the Waffen-SS were superbly equipped and tended to have high morale.
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht, but it accounted for nearly one-fourth of Germany’s panzer divisions and roughly one-third of the Wehrmacht’s panzer grenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wehrmacht

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.
Ironically, in the beginning, only those without a criminal record could join the LSSAH/SS.



Quote:
The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.


WTF that has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve heard on here

Did they have traditional moral standards while they loaded Jews into cattle carts or invaded other countries.

Conscripts I can feel sorry for signed up Nazi’s no


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,566
Location: Poland

06 Dec 2022, 9:04 am

^ Signed up nazis ended up primarily in the SS, as opposed to Wehrmacht.
But Germans of that time had a culture of authority and discipline, so if their orders were attrocitous...

I'm not sure about how active Wehrmacht was in e.g. this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre
The order came from SS but probably the regular army was involved, too.
Soviet nazi collaborators were sent there and they... weren't famous for discipline, to say the least.

And I, too, feel sorry for the conscripts who were sent to fight and die for dictators' follies, past and present.
Especially for those who remained human in these hells, who did not use the "spoils of war" at the expense of civilians but had to suffer the same.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,507

06 Dec 2022, 3:44 pm

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.
Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.


I think the German population went one step further than the Russians in that the indoctrination was specifically based on racial heirarchy which led to a firm belief in racial hygiene. This made the volume of people they killed and the way they killed gruesome. To me this is far scarier, just imagine if you were one of the groups targeted by the Nazis. It would be like living in the zombie apocalypse and every German around you is essentially a zombie. To me that would be far more horrific.

But yes, you are right, indoctrination works both ways, It's just Germans were indoctrinated with anti-semistism for centuries prior to Nazism.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,893
Location: Australia

06 Dec 2022, 9:00 pm

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.
Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.


"Two wrongs don't make a right."
It only satisfies the base lust of base humanity. 8)

It is human nature to be tribalistic.
Hitler simply used human psychology for his personal advantage.

The same tactic can be seen today.
Simply look at the political left Vs the political right nonsense.
Ppl need to stop being emotionally manipulated and think for themselves. 8)

Humans... :eew:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.