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How do you think slavery arose?

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AngelRho
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06 Feb 2023, 4:45 pm

JimJohn wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
In many cases, slaves used to live in shacks, while slaveowners used to live in substantial houses, or even mansions.


Ok, but not at Mount Vernon with George Washington. I suspect Hamilton was an outlier. I know my one possible ancestor out of 15 great great great great great grandpas was not taking cruises to France with his lover while someone else worked the farm.

I think the haciendas would be an interesting topic. That is obviously a different historically cultural backdrop. They are all mixed partly I imagine because it was acceptable to have mistresses.

Not that I exactly shy away from controversial views but...

...I'm getting a sense that this really isn't a topic you CAN discuss. To be honest, I'm kinda uncomfortable with the direction this topic has taken.

All you're going to get out of it is: Slavery = Evil.

Nothing more useful can come of it.

I vote to lock the thread.



funeralxempire
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06 Feb 2023, 5:00 pm

AngelRho wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
In many cases, slaves used to live in shacks, while slaveowners used to live in substantial houses, or even mansions.


Ok, but not at Mount Vernon with George Washington. I suspect Hamilton was an outlier. I know my one possible ancestor out of 15 great great great great great grandpas was not taking cruises to France with his lover while someone else worked the farm.

I think the haciendas would be an interesting topic. That is obviously a different historically cultural backdrop. They are all mixed partly I imagine because it was acceptable to have mistresses.

Not that I exactly shy away from controversial views but...

...I'm getting a sense that this really isn't a topic you CAN discuss. To be honest, I'm kinda uncomfortable with the direction this topic has taken.

All you're going to get out of it is: Slavery = Evil.

Nothing more useful can come of it.

I vote to lock the thread.


There's nothing wrong with discussing the topic, it's just that we should be able to identify apologist perspectives on the practice.

Especially with how OP seemed to want to defend and justify the practice as it occurred within the Americas during the colonial era. It's one thing to present how it was, it's another to keep offering the commentary of oh, it wasn't that bad.

We can discuss a system that denied people basic human dignity without making excuses for it. Whether it's ancient or more recent, such practices really ought not to be defended but it doesn't mean there aren't worthwhile discussions to have on the topic.

Practices like slavery or serfdom have broad impacts on the societies that practice them, it's worthwhile to examine that aspect.

We just don't need to be apologists for the powerful when they're mistreating people.


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kraftiekortie
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06 Feb 2023, 5:11 pm

I don’t find any virtue in slavery.

How is that “taking the thread in the wrong direction”?



AngelRho
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06 Feb 2023, 5:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
In many cases, slaves used to live in shacks, while slaveowners used to live in substantial houses, or even mansions.


Ok, but not at Mount Vernon with George Washington. I suspect Hamilton was an outlier. I know my one possible ancestor out of 15 great great great great great grandpas was not taking cruises to France with his lover while someone else worked the farm.

I think the haciendas would be an interesting topic. That is obviously a different historically cultural backdrop. They are all mixed partly I imagine because it was acceptable to have mistresses.

Not that I exactly shy away from controversial views but...

...I'm getting a sense that this really isn't a topic you CAN discuss. To be honest, I'm kinda uncomfortable with the direction this topic has taken.

All you're going to get out of it is: Slavery = Evil.

Nothing more useful can come of it.

I vote to lock the thread.


There's nothing wrong with discussing the topic, it's just that we should be able to identify apologist perspectives on the practice.

Especially with how OP seemed to want to defend and justify the practice as it occurred within the Americas during the colonial era. It's one thing to present how it was, it's another to keep offering the commentary of oh, it wasn't that bad.

We can discuss a system that denied people basic human dignity without making excuses for it. Whether it's ancient or more recent, such practices really ought not to be defended but it doesn't mean there aren't worthwhile discussions to have on the topic.

Practices like slavery or serfdom have broad impacts on the societies that practice them, it's worthwhile to examine that aspect.

We just don't need to be apologists for the powerful when they're mistreating people.

Oh, I've made the statement before that AT THE TIME slave owners and their politicians rationalized the institution by saying that they were better off as slaves since slavery at least had a civilizing effect on them. But the truth is there's nothing that can make it right. I agree that it is a topic that CAN be discussed. I'm just saying that I don't feel that it really is, and, as you say, "it's another to keep offering the commentary of oh, it wasn't that bad." That's why I think it's time to put this one in the past as it were and move on.



kraftiekortie
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06 Feb 2023, 5:16 pm

Nothing wrong with saying, unequivocally, that slavery is wrong.

Just because someone is an apologist for slavery—doesn’t prevent those against slavery from expressing their opinion.

This is proper discourse. No one is flinging insults upon anybody.



funeralxempire
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06 Feb 2023, 5:35 pm

AngelRho wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
In many cases, slaves used to live in shacks, while slaveowners used to live in substantial houses, or even mansions.


Ok, but not at Mount Vernon with George Washington. I suspect Hamilton was an outlier. I know my one possible ancestor out of 15 great great great great great grandpas was not taking cruises to France with his lover while someone else worked the farm.

I think the haciendas would be an interesting topic. That is obviously a different historically cultural backdrop. They are all mixed partly I imagine because it was acceptable to have mistresses.

Not that I exactly shy away from controversial views but...

...I'm getting a sense that this really isn't a topic you CAN discuss. To be honest, I'm kinda uncomfortable with the direction this topic has taken.

All you're going to get out of it is: Slavery = Evil.

Nothing more useful can come of it.

I vote to lock the thread.


There's nothing wrong with discussing the topic, it's just that we should be able to identify apologist perspectives on the practice.

Especially with how OP seemed to want to defend and justify the practice as it occurred within the Americas during the colonial era. It's one thing to present how it was, it's another to keep offering the commentary of oh, it wasn't that bad.

We can discuss a system that denied people basic human dignity without making excuses for it. Whether it's ancient or more recent, such practices really ought not to be defended but it doesn't mean there aren't worthwhile discussions to have on the topic.

Practices like slavery or serfdom have broad impacts on the societies that practice them, it's worthwhile to examine that aspect.

We just don't need to be apologists for the powerful when they're mistreating people.

Oh, I've made the statement before that AT THE TIME slave owners and their politicians rationalized the institution by saying that they were better off as slaves since slavery at least had a civilizing effect on them. But the truth is there's nothing that can make it right. I agree that it is a topic that CAN be discussed. I'm just saying that I don't feel that it really is, and, as you say, "it's another to keep offering the commentary of oh, it wasn't that bad." That's why I think it's time to put this one in the past as it were and move on.


That's a pretty solid case.
And for what it's worth, you never appeared to be crossing into apologism.


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auntblabby
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06 Feb 2023, 6:19 pm

it is enough to know that there are still moral atavists out there who want slavery to come back here on these shores.



AngelRho
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06 Feb 2023, 6:28 pm

auntblabby wrote:
it is enough to know that there are still moral atavists out there who want slavery to come back here on these shores.

Sad.

I prefer the legal term “involuntary servitude” as I believe there is a time and a place for everything, including the forfeit of basic rights by committing crimes. However, being born in Africa or having the wrong skin color are hardly any justification for it.



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06 Feb 2023, 6:30 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
In several places this thread touches on some pretty controversial views on slavery and while slavery per se remains a valid topic for discussion, it must be addressed with great care and sensitivity.

In this instance I'm not convinced that approach has been reliably maintained and, coupled with the unlikeliness of any further insights developing, this discussion is best ended now.

Locked.


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