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blunnet
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04 Jul 2011, 10:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What makes one a Muslim?


A very bad attitude.

ruveyn

But that would make ruveyn a muslim. ;)



blunnet
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04 Jul 2011, 10:38 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Icyclan wrote:
The belief that a celestial dictator is watching you 24/7, and that he sent an epileptic mass murderer to act as his spokesman on earth; when he died, said dictator sent his magic winged horse to fetch said mass murderer and carry him to paradise where he can have 72 grapes and all the young boys he desires.

This sounds more like the Roman Catholic church. This thread is about what makes one Muslim!

(Just kidding, btw!! ! I just couldn't help myself! lol Please don't throw anything at me! [runs and hides])

I thought this sounded like Christianity as a whole.



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04 Jul 2011, 10:44 pm

For those who mentioned the shahadah - awesome! I love seeing people know what they're talking about. For those who are full of bile... well, I'm sure just being you is punishment enough.

Sorry, Salad, if people bashed your religion. I've come to the conclusion that theres a certain kind of barbaric idiocy in all of us that comes out in different ways. Some people hate a given religion, some hate all religions, some hate races, and some turn that same hate inwards. -shrug- But I can say from experience that Islam is as good as any religion, that the members are loving and kind, and welcome you in even if you are not 'one of them.' I did ramadan with my best friend when I was younger. I have the qu'uaran and hijaab her family gave me, and I didn't forget how even her extended family had gifts for me at eid.

No, I can't say all who are muslim are so wonderful, but thats true of all religions. Right now the middle east is experiencing a lot of strife. In the ever changing ways of warfare, a people feeling angry and disenfranchised has resorted to using a new method of attack.

And as a side note - my best friend had to leave the US after 9/11 because of how her family was treated. That horrifies me beyond words...



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04 Jul 2011, 11:38 pm

I like Muslim eh is a pretty cool guy has a beard, bombs and doesn't afraid of anything.


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05 Jul 2011, 2:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Germany and Japan were thoroughly bombed. Together they lost nearly 2,000,000 civilians killed and millions more made homeless. Yet neither of this nations produced habitual terrorism. Your excuses for Muslims are lame and misplaced. Islam produced the Assassin movement in the 10th century and Muslim assassins terrorize Persia for nearly two centuries. What excuses will you think of for this?

ruveyn


Bader Meinhof?
Aum Shinrikyo?

And while we're at it, let's throw another Axis power, the Italians, into the mix: The Red Brigade.

What is misplaced is your failure to see the larger picture. The use of force to achieve political ends is not restricted to a single people, nation or culture. By confining your acknowledgemnet of terrorism to radical Islam, you fail utterly to recognize that as the political winds shift, terrorism will be taken up by new practitioners in future decades.

What lies at the root of all terrorism is, I suggest, tribalism. When two distinct peoples come into conflict they will, more often than not, resort to violence as a means to resolve their conflict. By perpetuating this idea that "might makes right" we simply perpetuate the likelihood that people--particularly those people who view themselves as repressed by the government of a nation state--will see terrorism as a viable means to achieve a political end.

I am no apologist for Islamic terrorism, nor for the terrorism of Tamils in the LTTE, Irish in the IRA, Québecois in the FLQ, Americans in the Militia Movement or any of the other myriad forms in which terrorism manifests itself. But I will staunchly defend an entire culture from getting labelled for the sins of a small subset of their people.

I was born in Québec, but I was never a member of the FLQ. I am a Jew, but I was never a member of Irgun. Condemn members of Hamas who commit atrocities, but do not condemn all Palestinians for the sin of being compatriots.


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05 Jul 2011, 2:56 pm

Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pittfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.



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05 Jul 2011, 4:12 pm

aghogday wrote:
Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pittfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.


Millions of people have no choice in the matter, they are born as Muslims and are condemned to be Muslims until they die. You do know the punishment for apostasy from Islam, right?

If the unwilling Muslims were to be 'freed', so to speak, and the tribal, ignorant ones who don't know any better were to be properly educated, the amount of people who'd call themselves Muslims would decrease drastically. If you also were to take Muslims who are physically incapable of violence out of the equation, the ratio of moderates vs radicals would be far less rosy than it is now.

If you, hypthetically, were to conduct a survey among all Muslims to gauge whether or not they support terrorist activities in the west, most Muslims would not support it. Now if you were to limit the respondents to Muslim men between 15 and 35, that would give us a more realistic percentage of radicals among Muslims; and I don't think we'd like the outcome of that poll...



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05 Jul 2011, 4:18 pm

Fun exercise: Replace Muslim with Christian in the replies.


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05 Jul 2011, 4:23 pm

blunnet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What makes one a Muslim?


A very bad attitude.

ruveyn

But that would make ruveyn a muslim. ;)


My attitude is bad, but it is not very bad.

ruveyn



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05 Jul 2011, 4:33 pm

salad wrote:
Disgusting ignorance coming from the mouth of bigots who should know from their past years of being stereotyped that you shouldn't judge a group by a couple of individuals. Man, whatever happened to aspies saying they hate it when people call them retards even though almost every Aspie i have ever met was a loner who would throw a tantrum in public places, fidget, stim and have weird quirks yet I dont stereotype you all as being mentally retarded, heck I barely stereotype any. You people who claim my religion is a barbaric uncivilized religion just because you hear that on the news are the same people who say "stop judging us just because people portray us as being mentally retarded" while your ignorant enough to post hateful comments about my religion. You people who are posting these hateful comments should be more intellectual than that, if that's what you tell NT's who judge you even though they barely even got to know you. Why not instead of being like the so called "overly socialized NT who isn't intelligent" you try being the opposite - the so called "intelligent aspie who is open minded and reflects and thinks". To put it in simpler words, why not you quote to me a verse from my Quran that proves that Islam is the barbaric evil religion that you rant on about. After all, wouldn't the so called "highly intelligent aspie" be able to use constructive criticism in a religious debate? thats what im wondering. you people who bash my religion are the exact opposite of the aspies ive met who were open minded and intelligent. the reason im bringer aspergers into this discussion is because I believed that people who can relate to the pain of being stereotyped and judged just because of propaganda should move past ignorance, not follow it. And I hope you all know that Aspergers is equally misrepresented as Islam so I would be careful if I were you when opening my mouth and saying hateful things about a religion when similar things can be said about Aspergers by those who were brainwashed with ignorant propaganda. Getting back to the point either quote the verse of my holy book where Islam orders even the tiniest uncivilized act or don't post another hateful thing about Islam, because going to court without evidence will only get you thrown out in seconds (btw sorry for my rudeness its just that being stereotyped for a religion that's extremely misrepresented is frustrating)


I won't quote all the hate speech in the Qur'an because I think this forum has a one million character limit per post. So here's the link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

Get over your false indignation. As long as your little terrorist manual considers us kafirs third class citizens and fuel to the hellfire, you're not exactly in a position to feel offended. Only with Islam can you point out its discriminatory teachings and cause its followers to foam at their mouths in rage for daring to 'attack' their cult. Not even the KKK is that bad.



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05 Jul 2011, 4:38 pm

Icyclan wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pittfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.


Millions of people have no choice in the matter, they are born as Muslims and are condemned to be Muslims until they die. You do know the punishment for apostasy from Islam, right?

If the unwilling Muslims were to be 'freed', so to speak, and the tribal, ignorant ones who don't know any better were to be properly educated, the amount of people who'd call themselves Muslims would decrease drastically. If you also were to take Muslims who are physically incapable of violence out of the equation, the ratio of moderates vs radicals would be far less rosy than it is now.

If you, hypthetically, were to conduct a survey among all Muslims to gauge whether or not they support terrorist activities in the west, most Muslims would not support it. Now if you were to limit the respondents to Muslim men between 15 and 35, that would give us a more realistic percentage of radicals among Muslims; and I don't think we'd like the outcome of that poll...



What America considers radical is technically ANY opposition to an unjust policy that America supports. For example, America considers the Iraqi resistance fighters as radicals just because they kill American soldiers who invaded their land illegally. Let me ask you something, if the American revolutionists, who happened to be the subject of yesterdays July the 4th celebration, are heroes for standing up to the British red coats who colonized them, then why the hell are the Iraqi resistance fighters terrorists for defending their homeland? If you look at the meaning of terrorism, doesn't it mean the act of frightening someone into doing something? America was the one who invaded Iraq, not vice versa, so why don't the Iraqis have a right to bear arms in defense? Did you know that American soldiers killed 1.5 million Iraqis, not just soldiers, kids, women, babies, and innocent men. Is that anti terrorism or pro terrorism, killing 1.5 million of a country's population?

I can understand why the Iraqi resistance fighters are labeled as radicals, for their cause involves bearing arms, despite for self defense, so I'll show you another group that's labeled as radical - CAIR. CAIR is the most moderate Muslim group in America, they are as moderate as you can get, yet just because their goal is to come to common terms with Americans and Islam (hence the name) CAIR has received a lot of negativity. Honestly I'm a staunch supporter of CAIR and always will be like the rest of the Muslims in America. Yes I don't support terrorism like Al Qaeda, but I do support those who strive for my religion. I never support those extremists who kill innocent people, but I support those who are fighting, not necessarily by bearing arms, against all injustice directed towards my religion and it's followers



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05 Jul 2011, 5:28 pm

Icyclan wrote:
salad wrote:
Disgusting ignorance coming from the mouth of bigots who should know from their past years of being stereotyped that you shouldn't judge a group by a couple of individuals. Man, whatever happened to aspies saying they hate it when people call them retards even though almost every Aspie i have ever met was a loner who would throw a tantrum in public places, fidget, stim and have weird quirks yet I dont stereotype you all as being mentally retarded, heck I barely stereotype any. You people who claim my religion is a barbaric uncivilized religion just because you hear that on the news are the same people who say "stop judging us just because people portray us as being mentally retarded" while your ignorant enough to post hateful comments about my religion. You people who are posting these hateful comments should be more intellectual than that, if that's what you tell NT's who judge you even though they barely even got to know you. Why not instead of being like the so called "overly socialized NT who isn't intelligent" you try being the opposite - the so called "intelligent aspie who is open minded and reflects and thinks". To put it in simpler words, why not you quote to me a verse from my Quran that proves that Islam is the barbaric evil religion that you rant on about. After all, wouldn't the so called "highly intelligent aspie" be able to use constructive criticism in a religious debate? thats what im wondering. you people who bash my religion are the exact opposite of the aspies ive met who were open minded and intelligent. the reason im bringer aspergers into this discussion is because I believed that people who can relate to the pain of being stereotyped and judged just because of propaganda should move past ignorance, not follow it. And I hope you all know that Aspergers is equally misrepresented as Islam so I would be careful if I were you when opening my mouth and saying hateful things about a religion when similar things can be said about Aspergers by those who were brainwashed with ignorant propaganda. Getting back to the point either quote the verse of my holy book where Islam orders even the tiniest uncivilized act or don't post another hateful thing about Islam, because going to court without evidence will only get you thrown out in seconds (btw sorry for my rudeness its just that being stereotyped for a religion that's extremely misrepresented is frustrating)


I won't quote all the hate speech in the Qur'an because I think this forum has a one million character limit per post. So here's the link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

Get over your false indignation. As long as your little terrorist manual considers us kafirs third class citizens and fuel to the hellfire, you're not exactly in a position to feel offended. Only with Islam can you point out its discriminatory teachings and cause its followers to foam at their mouths in rage for daring to 'attack' their cult. Not even the KKK is that bad.



1st of all, I'm glad that you have at least some evidence to support your false allegations of Islam, but convincing me that Islam is a dirty religion does not lie in the question "Do you have evidence to support your allegations", but rather lies in the credibility of your source/sources. The website that you posted was not a reliable source on Islam at all. Why should I be convinced that Islam is a dirty religion when your source of evidence is biased in the following ways:

1. To start things off smoothly I will ask you a question: Would you look up an article about African American history written by a KKK member? Would you look up an article on Judaism written by a Neo Nazi? Without a doubt the answer for both questions is "no" because there is a huge bias that lies in the author of both articles. Both authors will most definitely rant on about how disgusting, filthy and vile they (the African Americans and Jews) are with facts, but their facts won't be credible due to their bias. The article that you posted is no difference - an Islamaphoebic with "evidence" that Islam is dirty, but all of his evidence was Quranic verses taken out of context. Why are you willing to believe a source filled with lies, yes lies, instead of looking for the most accurate source. To put it simpler, who should know more about Islam, an Imam or a rabbi? An Imam, of course since it is their religion. Now who should know more about Judaism, an Imam or a rabbi? A rabbi. If a Muslim scholar is supposed to know the most about his/her religion then why not you go to a website by a scholar, instead of by an ignorant Islamaphoebic? Here's a website that talks about EVERY, I REPEAT, EVERY single fact, misconception, Quranic verse, Islamic law, and Islamic view on other religions there is out there. It's extremely credible because it was made by a scholar and it deals with every category of Islam that a non Muslim would love to hear about. Here's the link:

http://sultan.org/

Don't make an excuse to not go on that website because I was brave enough to go on the website that you posted despite the fact that I knew it would humiliate my religion, I still went on it to learn more from your side, so you should do the same for mine.

2. Those verses are quoted out of context, but If you go to

this link:

http://askamufti.com/

you can ask a question about Islam that you want and get an answer. All you do is click on the "Ask a question" box, which you can't miss. Then you put your email address and just ask any question you want about a verse that you don't understand and they'll explain it to you. I'm no mufti/scholar so going on that website will do a better job of receiving answers to why the Quran says some of the stuff it says, but this time the verses won't be taken out of context.

3. Almost all religions believe in a concept of heaven and hell for those who deny their own religion and for those who follow it. It's not just Islam, but other religions also



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05 Jul 2011, 5:37 pm

Oh and by the way, the website that you posted was so biased that I, one who is not a scholar nor an Imam, can literally explain half the verses and how they were taken out of context and yet still not be finished. I can explain almost all the verses if I wanted to, but that will be tedious so I decided to make things easier by posting a website that was meant for Non Muslims and Muslims alike to go to to inquire about Islam.

I'''ll post the link one more time:

http://askamufti.com/



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05 Jul 2011, 5:58 pm

Icyclan wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pitfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.


Millions of people have no choice in the matter, they are born as Muslims and are condemned to be Muslims until they die. You do know the punishment for apostasy from Islam, right?

If the unwilling Muslims were to be 'freed', so to speak, and the tribal, ignorant ones who don't know any better were to be properly educated, the amount of people who'd call themselves Muslims would decrease drastically. If you also were to take Muslims who are physically incapable of violence out of the equation, the ratio of moderates vs radicals would be far less rosy than it is now.

If you, hypthetically, were to conduct a survey among all Muslims to gauge whether or not they support terrorist activities in the west, most Muslims would not support it. Now if you were to limit the respondents to Muslim men between 15 and 35, that would give us a more realistic percentage of radicals among Muslims; and I don't think we'd like the outcome of that poll...


The oppressive practices in Muslim countries varies by country. Wherever there is oppression people would likely escape the way of life if they could. It is related to what country they live in, as well as what religion is practiced. I don't agree with many of the practices of the religion in those countries where the laws allow capital punishment for moral infractions, but it is part of the culture and nation as it is a part of the religion. Without the specific influence of particular countries and cultures, the penalties are different for moral infractions.

Cultures other than those that have the Muslim faith use terrorism as a method of war, it is by no means unique to the Muslim faith or Muslim Countries. It's not unusual for members of a country to support a technique of war against an opposing force when they believe it is justified. We normally support our intentions for war as justified regardless of the techniques that we use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Opinion_surveys


Quote:
Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries between 2001 and 2007. It found that – contrary to the prevailing perception in the west that the actions of al-Qaeda enjoy wide support in the Muslim world – more than 90% of respondents condemned the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.[77]



While we support the efforts of our military, the percentage that actually go into combat as opposed to our total population is extremely low.

The percentage is much lower for the actual participants of terrorist type activities, in any given country.

I understand that Muslim countries support war efforts and terrorism where they see it as justified, but the actual number of terrorists involved in these activities is miniscule, and has not been much of a war effort (so far) as opposed to what they could accomplish if they had the military of a first world country.

The poll results from gallup show the overwhelming majority of people in Muslim countries have much the same values as Americans in condemning the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.

The problems we see in the religion are related to many other factors outside of the religion itself. Many of these countries don't separate church and state, so it is difficult to separate anything the religion or the country decides to do.

I think the bottom line though is the people that practice the religion in countries where church and state is separate, voluntarily participate and live as peacefully among the rest of the citizens as the participants of any other religion.

That fact itself, should be evidence enough that the religion itself is not the major problem, but the cultural influence of some Nations that call it their state religion is the origin of the major problems.

It wasn't too long ago that we called ourselves a nation of Christians, had slaves, and women had very few rights. These other countries, given enough time and change, can move in a direction of reduced oppression and still consider themselves a nation comprised of Muslims, the same way people in this country still call it a nation of Christians, even though we have separation of church and state.

We're not going to get rid of religions, but it is evident that nations and culture can change, to make life better for all citizens within those nations and cultures.

I doubt we will force it to happen. I think if we would like to see a reduction in terrorism, we should work to become less dependent on oil as a source of energy. I think without continued world dependence on these resources, some of these countries would no longer be as independent and would be looking to gain greater cooperation with the rest of the world for survival; their cultural practices could change for the better as well.



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05 Jul 2011, 6:07 pm

aghogday wrote:
Icyclan wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pitfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.


Millions of people have no choice in the matter, they are born as Muslims and are condemned to be Muslims until they die. You do know the punishment for apostasy from Islam, right?

If the unwilling Muslims were to be 'freed', so to speak, and the tribal, ignorant ones who don't know any better were to be properly educated, the amount of people who'd call themselves Muslims would decrease drastically. If you also were to take Muslims who are physically incapable of violence out of the equation, the ratio of moderates vs radicals would be far less rosy than it is now.

If you, hypthetically, were to conduct a survey among all Muslims to gauge whether or not they support terrorist activities in the west, most Muslims would not support it. Now if you were to limit the respondents to Muslim men between 15 and 35, that would give us a more realistic percentage of radicals among Muslims; and I don't think we'd like the outcome of that poll...


The oppressive practices in Muslim countries varies by country. Wherever there is oppression people would likely escape the way of life if they could. It is related to what country they live in, as well as what religion is practiced. I don't agree with many of the practices of the religion in those countries where the laws allow capital punishment for moral infractions, but it is part of the culture and nation as it is a part of the religion. Without the specific influence of particular countries and cultures, the penalties are different for moral infractions.

Cultures other than those that have the Muslim faith use terrorism as a method of war, it is by no means unique to the Muslim faith or Muslim Countries. It's not unusual for members of a country to support a technique of war against an opposing force when they believe it is justified. We normally support our intentions for war as justified regardless of the techniques that we use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Opinion_surveys


Quote:
Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries between 2001 and 2007. It found that – contrary to the prevailing perception in the west that the actions of al-Qaeda enjoy wide support in the Muslim world – more than 90% of respondents condemned the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.[77]



While we support the efforts of our military, the percentage that actually go into combat as opposed to our total population is extremely low.

The percentage is much lower for the actual participants of terrorist type activities, in any given country.

I understand that Muslim countries support war efforts and terrorism where they see it as justified, but the actual number of terrorists involved in these activities is miniscule, and has not been much of a war effort (so far) as opposed to what they could accomplish if they had the military of a first world country.

The poll results from gallup show the overwhelming majority of people in Muslim countries have much the same values as Americans in condemning the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.

The problems we see in the religion are related to many other factors outside of the religion itself. Many of these countries don't separate church and state, so it is difficult to separate anything the religion or the country decides to do.

I think the bottom line though is the people that practice the religion in countries where church and state is separate, voluntarily participate and live as peacefully among the rest of the citizens as the participants of any other religion.

That fact itself, should be evidence enough that the religion itself is not the major problem, but the cultural influence of some Nations that call it their state religion is the origin of the major problems.

It wasn't too long ago that we called ourselves a nation of Christians, had slaves, and women had very few rights. These other countries, given enough time and change, can move in a direction of reduced oppression and still consider themselves a nation comprised of Muslims, the same way people in this country still call it a nation of Christians, even though we have separation of church and state.

We're not going to get rid of religions, but it is evident that nations and culture can change, to make life better for all citizens within those nations and cultures.

I doubt we will force it to happen. I think if we would like to see a reduction in terrorism, we should work to become less dependent on oil as a source of energy. I think without continued world dependence on these resources, some of these countries would no longer be as independent and would be looking to gain greater cooperation with the rest of the world for survival; their cultural practices could change for the better as well.


May God bless you for being open minded.



aghogday
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05 Jul 2011, 6:36 pm

salad wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Icyclan wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Twenty-Three percent of the world is said to be Muslim. Not likely that over one and a half Billion people would be part of a religion if they didn't get real benefits out of participating in it.

Everytime I hear a concern about Muslim terrorists, even if there are 100,000 of them, I can't help to think of the over 99 percent that aren't. Statistics don't lie. In any group of over one and a half billion people there are likely to be at least 100,000 extremist ideologies among the group regardless of race, religion, or national origin; all potentially dangerous in their own way.

There is evidence that Muslim women are gaining more rights in modern cultures, just as Christian women have gained rights in modern cultures. It wasn't too long ago that women were considered less than men in our culture. Given time, and further movement toward a world economy, this will probably continue to change for women of Muslim faith in developed countries.

I see that as the biggest pitfall of the religion, but it's hasn't been just a Muslim problem. I don't see the cultural ways of staying covered for women much different than the dress of some of our more fundamentalist religions in our country. That doesn't seem too far out of the norm in what we see in other cultures.

The religion is unique in that it encouraged the pursuit of scientific knowledge in the Golden Era of Islam. Without the Islam culture we might not have gained the basis for many of the scientific advances that help us in our everyday life.

Like every other religion, culture, nation, group of people, or individual there are pros and cons. Over one and a half billion participating is the best possible evidence I can imagine that the pros outway the cons.


Millions of people have no choice in the matter, they are born as Muslims and are condemned to be Muslims until they die. You do know the punishment for apostasy from Islam, right?

If the unwilling Muslims were to be 'freed', so to speak, and the tribal, ignorant ones who don't know any better were to be properly educated, the amount of people who'd call themselves Muslims would decrease drastically. If you also were to take Muslims who are physically incapable of violence out of the equation, the ratio of moderates vs radicals would be far less rosy than it is now.

If you, hypthetically, were to conduct a survey among all Muslims to gauge whether or not they support terrorist activities in the west, most Muslims would not support it. Now if you were to limit the respondents to Muslim men between 15 and 35, that would give us a more realistic percentage of radicals among Muslims; and I don't think we'd like the outcome of that poll...


The oppressive practices in Muslim countries varies by country. Wherever there is oppression people would likely escape the way of life if they could. It is related to what country they live in, as well as what religion is practiced. I don't agree with many of the practices of the religion in those countries where the laws allow capital punishment for moral infractions, but it is part of the culture and nation as it is a part of the religion. Without the specific influence of particular countries and cultures, the penalties are different for moral infractions.

Cultures other than those that have the Muslim faith use terrorism as a method of war, it is by no means unique to the Muslim faith or Muslim Countries. It's not unusual for members of a country to support a technique of war against an opposing force when they believe it is justified. We normally support our intentions for war as justified regardless of the techniques that we use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Opinion_surveys


Quote:
Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries between 2001 and 2007. It found that – contrary to the prevailing perception in the west that the actions of al-Qaeda enjoy wide support in the Muslim world – more than 90% of respondents condemned the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.[77]



While we support the efforts of our military, the percentage that actually go into combat as opposed to our total population is extremely low.

The percentage is much lower for the actual participants of terrorist type activities, in any given country.

I understand that Muslim countries support war efforts and terrorism where they see it as justified, but the actual number of terrorists involved in these activities is miniscule, and has not been much of a war effort (so far) as opposed to what they could accomplish if they had the military of a first world country.

The poll results from gallup show the overwhelming majority of people in Muslim countries have much the same values as Americans in condemning the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.

The problems we see in the religion are related to many other factors outside of the religion itself. Many of these countries don't separate church and state, so it is difficult to separate anything the religion or the country decides to do.

I think the bottom line though is the people that practice the religion in countries where church and state is separate, voluntarily participate and live as peacefully among the rest of the citizens as the participants of any other religion.

That fact itself, should be evidence enough that the religion itself is not the major problem, but the cultural influence of some Nations that call it their state religion is the origin of the major problems.

It wasn't too long ago that we called ourselves a nation of Christians, had slaves, and women had very few rights. These other countries, given enough time and change, can move in a direction of reduced oppression and still consider themselves a nation comprised of Muslims, the same way people in this country still call it a nation of Christians, even though we have separation of church and state.

We're not going to get rid of religions, but it is evident that nations and culture can change, to make life better for all citizens within those nations and cultures.

I doubt we will force it to happen. I think if we would like to see a reduction in terrorism, we should work to become less dependent on oil as a source of energy. I think without continued world dependence on these resources, some of these countries would no longer be as independent and would be looking to gain greater cooperation with the rest of the world for survival; their cultural practices could change for the better as well.


May God bless you for being open minded.


I don't think the importance of religion can be underestimated in civilization as a whole. It is one of the few cultural influences in the world that help people become disciplined to moderate their human nature. Not just to avoid the things in life that are illegal, but the excesses that human nature was not designed to cope with. Religions have been around for thousands of years and haven't evolved much, but neither has basic human nature.

Many of the problems of the world can be contributed to religions, but if all the religions vanished tommorrow, I doubt many of us would want to see the result of that. Particularly, in societies that don't have a healthy organizational structure for their citizens. Religion has provided this for centuries and continues to play this role of great importance for the majority of the population in the world.

I see many illusions in societies as a whole, but I can't think of anything closer to reality than the basic requirements and disciplinary needs of human nature; religion plays a huge role in meeting both of these needs.