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Fnord
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08 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Catholicism isn't works-based. Catholics do a lot of works, but it is still based on faith being the path to salvation - as is pretty much all of Christianity.
That is the Poison Pill bequeathed to Christians by that self hating Jew, Saul of Tarsus. ruveyn
It did place the religion in antagonism to reason.
You have a gift for understatement. ruveyn


"He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: 'I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'." -- Matthew 18:2-3

This means that you should abandon all doubt, reason, knowledge, and understanding. Or, as my Sunday-School teacher once said, "They should stop thinking and just believe!" He was referring to people who asked questions and debated the finer points of church doctrine -- a big, bad no-no among those for whom faith justifies itself.



bigwheel
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09 Nov 2012, 10:11 am

Good point. True because people do not act on what they claim to believe but rather on what they really believe. The Gospel of Roman Catholicism vs the Gospel of Christ can be expressed in a quasi mathematical formula:

RC Gospel

Grace+faith+good works=salvation

Christ's Gospel

Grace+faith=salvation=good works

To coin a phrase from an old preacher..Faith that dont change you will not save you.

[quote="pawelk1986"]

Yes, but as Martin Luther had once written: "By faith alone, but faith is never alone." Meaning, for faith to truly be real, it has to produce works.

-



bigwheel
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09 Nov 2012, 10:39 am

Guess we have to disagree on that. Roman Catholicism is as works based as it gets...but take comfort there are many works based Christian denominations out there in the world. Including Christian cults such as Mormonism..Jehovah Witnesses..7th Day Aventists...and extending to more mainline groups such as Methodists (at least before they turned so liberal..not sure what they believe if anything nowadays)..Assembly of God..Church of Christ..to name a few. Any Protestant group founded on the theories of Arminius tend to believe that salvation can be lost once gained..which makes salvation dependent on works or actions. Which means adherents to those teachings never have any assurance as to whether they have been saved or not or whether they have lost it...they might need to do some more good works to get over the hump..or they may have some nasty old in sin in their life which has caused their name to be erased from the Lamb's Book of Life. Those groups founded on the doctrines of John Calvin on the other hand tend to believe that once attained salvation cannot be lost regardless of our actions or inaction. That is what is called Blessed Assurance in the old song of the same title. Carried to the final extreme if we could be good enough to earn salvation..we would not need Jesus. As Paul said..Jesus came to save sinners..or which Paul was chief. Grace i.e. unmerited favor, is a free Gift of God. It is not dispensed by earthly man made religious systems..churches..preachers etc.

puddingmouse wrote:
[/quote]

Catholicism isn't works-based. Catholics do a lot of works, but it is still based on faith being the path to salvation - as is pretty much all of Christianity.

The only form of Christianity that is arguably works-based is the Society of Friends outside the Conservative branch (liberal Quakers).[/quote]



puddingmouse
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09 Nov 2012, 12:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Catholicism isn't works-based. Catholics do a lot of works, but it is still based on faith being the path to salvation - as is pretty much all of Christianity.

.


That is the Poison Pill bequeathed to Christians by that self hating Jew, Saul of Tarsus.

ruveyn


It did place the religion in antagonism to reason.


You have a gift for understatement.

ruveyn


I'm British.



puddingmouse
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09 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

bigwheel wrote:
Guess we have to disagree on that. Roman Catholicism is as works based as it gets...but take comfort there are many works based Christian denominations out there in the world. Including Christian cults such as Mormonism..Jehovah Witnesses..7th Day Aventists...and extending to more mainline groups such as Methodists (at least before they turned so liberal..not sure what they believe if anything nowadays)..Assembly of God..Church of Christ..to name a few. Any Protestant group founded on the theories of Arminius tend to believe that salvation can be lost once gained..which makes salvation dependent on works or actions. Which means adherents to those teachings never have any assurance as to whether they have been saved or not or whether they have lost it...they might need to do some more good works to get over the hump..or they may have some nasty old in sin in their life which has caused their name to be erased from the Lamb's Book of Life. Those groups founded on the doctrines of John Calvin on the other hand tend to believe that once attained salvation cannot be lost regardless of our actions or inaction. That is what is called Blessed Assurance in the old song of the same title. Carried to the final extreme if we could be good enough to earn salvation..we would not need Jesus. As Paul said..Jesus came to save sinners..or which Paul was chief. Grace i.e. unmerited favor, is a free Gift of God. It is not dispensed by earthly man made religious systems..churches..preachers etc.


You 'need' Jesus to be saved in any Christian church (except ones that are merely Christian-inspired), it's just not as explicit as it is in Calvinism. Also, I think in Arminianism it's not so much that salvation is based on works as much as that grace can be resisted. It's not the same thing. Salvation comes from faith alone, but you're just capable of refusing to be saved.

In Catholicism you need Jesus as mediated through the Church and the sacraments. It's still not works-based salvation, but I agree that it's 'closer' to it than Arminian Protestantism. Really, it's faith + men in silly clothes doing rituals = salvation. :P

Tbh, I lost faith in Christianity around the same time as I took upon myself to study theology and realised that Calvinism actually made the most logical sense, but then realised I couldn't look at the world that way and remain a remotely sane person. That's not the reason I lost faith, the reason is that I just couldn't believe in God anymore.



johansen
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09 Nov 2012, 4:55 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Tbh, I lost faith in Christianity around the same time as I took upon myself to study theology and realised that Calvinism actually made the most logical sense, but then realised I couldn't look at the world that way and remain a remotely sane person. That's not the reason I lost faith, the reason is that I just couldn't believe in God anymore.


you mean you didn't want to unplug from the matrix?

perhaps this will give you more perspective, its really well done.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheJonathankleck



puddingmouse
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09 Nov 2012, 7:00 pm

johansen wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Tbh, I lost faith in Christianity around the same time as I took upon myself to study theology and realised that Calvinism actually made the most logical sense, but then realised I couldn't look at the world that way and remain a remotely sane person. That's not the reason I lost faith, the reason is that I just couldn't believe in God anymore.


you mean you didn't want to unplug from the matrix?

perhaps this will give you more perspective, its really well done.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheJonathankleck


No, I meant what I said.



bigwheel
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09 Nov 2012, 8:22 pm

Blimey..a Brit lady you say? I did not know they had them..lol. Just teasing of course. I got me a Brit Big Brudder running around over there somewhere..if he aint passed of old age yet or some of them wild left handed drivers aint had a chance to run him down. He is/was a leftover from the Big War. Where my Daddy hung out for a while over there in the Army Air Corps. Try not to run over any old red headed fat guys if you can help it. :)

Actually..one of the best pals I ever had in the world was a Marion Friar. He even got to meet the Pope who was the Polish guy..I forget his nic right now. We argued er I mean discussed religion till the cows come home a few times. Found out it works sorta liberal vs conservative in politics. It aint a straight line..its a wheel. If you start on the left or right and start flailing away it winds you up back at square one on the bottom of the dial. Or risk landing in the enemy camp by mistake lol.

When I got saved..know all salvation experiences are different of course...The Lord put a hook in my jaw and started reeling me up. I fought for a while but soon realized there is no escape. If you have the hook firmly planted lay back and enjoy the ride to the top. Cheerio. (hope that aint too David Nivenish..yall dont really talk like that now do ya?)

puddingmouse wrote:
johansen wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Tbh, I lost faith in Christianity around the same time as I took upon myself to study theology and realised that Calvinism actually made the most logical sense, but then realised I couldn't look at the world that way and remain a remotely sane person. That's not the reason I lost faith, the reason is that I just couldn't believe in God anymore.


you mean you didn't want to unplug from the matrix?



ruveyn
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09 Nov 2012, 8:48 pm

Fnord wrote:

This means that you should abandon all doubt, reason, knowledge, and understanding. Or, as my Sunday-School teacher once said, "They should stop thinking and just believe!" He was referring to people who asked questions and debated the finer points of church doctrine -- a big, bad no-no among those for whom faith justifies itself.


Thinking, analyzing and sometimes doubting is a -requirement- for Jews. Studying Torah and Talmud takes one right into the Midrash. Midrash is derived from the hebrew verb doh-raysh which means to seek or quest after the central point or truth. That is why I have no trouble being Jewish notwithstanding some of my theological reservations. There is nothing in Judaism that requires one park his brains with the car, before entering a synagogue.

Judaism is a thinking person's religion or ethical system. Faith comes from the doing and the thinking if it comes at all.

ruveyn



puddingmouse
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09 Nov 2012, 8:50 pm

^ The Polish guy was Wojtyla, or Pope John Paul Second Edition.

I've never used Cheerio in my life :P We say 'cheers' a lot, though, in the same way.



Prud
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10 Nov 2012, 1:55 am

ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:

Judaism is a thinking person's religion or ethical system. Faith comes from the doing and the thinking if it comes at all.

ruveyn


Any honest thinking person has no religion, ethics does not come from religion and you only need to read any of the manmade books, bible, quoran, torah etc, to see ethics and morality are not a strong point.

Ethics are a philosophical concept based on how our actions helps or hinders mankind; all religion has hindered this process of self-knowledge. My ethics as an atheist prevents me from wanting to kill, rape, persecute & discriminate because it's just wrong. Religion has and continues to justify murder, rape, persecution & discrimination based on a belief system.

I would not wish to mutilate a baby because it is defenseless and my nature is to protect the defenseless (ETHICS), Judaism mutilates baby boys and uses religion to justify child abuse. Similarly, Muslins mutilate young girls, again justifying the abuse with its twisted religion.
Ethics allows me to place myself in the shoes of others and conclude what is right and what is wrong based on my self-knowledge, religion has taught people to discriminate against all who do not hold the same twisted views. My ethics also prevents me from wishing to cause unnecessary suffering, Judaism ignores ethics again with it's stance on kosher slaughter and so do the Muslins with regard to halal.

While I would wish to use logic and critical thinking to argue against the existence of deities, those who believe in deities have justified the use of deadly force to win the argument by wiping out the opposition. A modern example of this can be seen in the Arab–Israeli conflict (Jews, Muslins & Christians) and the justification for this is because Jews believe the "second coming of Christ" can only happen if the Jews get all of the "promised land" which the Christians agree with and the muslins believe something similar because Ishmael was a son of Abraham.

Jew and Muslin religions to an outsider are very similar, so using ethics should bring them together in mutual understanding but religion only serves to feed the need to take life from anyone with the smallest of difference to all of your "one true religion"

Those of you with any other religion I have not mentioned are guilty of the same, if not worse actions (Catholics & the spead of aids in africa because of indoctrinating that god would be angry if condoms are used), so don’t think you have any moral high ground.

Religion is a cancer on mankind and has held us back from acheiving more, just look at the percecution of Galileo because he used logic and not religion.



MarketAndChurch
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10 Nov 2012, 2:19 am

But what source do you source your ethics from?

I don't know of any circumcised men who don't enjoy sex because of their "mutilated" penis. how dare you compare it to the mutilation of a woman...

Ethics allows you to study the views of others from their shoes? Or do you source ethics from the act? In any event, where is the Prud's logic and reasoning?

How is kosher slaughter wishing unjust suffering?

The Christians have a theological commandment to love the Jews whose ethics they took to the world. They are told explicitly that those who bless the Jews will be bless, and those who curse the Jews will be blessed, and history has confirmed this.

The Jews and Palestinians are moral equivalents?

Jews don't seek converts, we are an ad-hoc movement, and judging by the history of the movement, it has been largely a suicide mission considering how many Jews have been slaughtered by haters throughout history. There is no inherent benefit... we are only here to teach the world so that it may be a more elevated place... only when it is a better place can our mitzvahs bring the messiah.

I don't mind disagreements at all, but I am very very curious to hear more of your views.


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MarketAndChurch
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10 Nov 2012, 2:27 am

ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:

This means that you should abandon all doubt, reason, knowledge, and understanding. Or, as my Sunday-School teacher once said, "They should stop thinking and just believe!" He was referring to people who asked questions and debated the finer points of church doctrine -- a big, bad no-no among those for whom faith justifies itself.


Thinking, analyzing and sometimes doubting is a -requirement- for Jews. Studying Torah and Talmud takes one right into the Midrash. Midrash is derived from the hebrew verb doh-raysh which means to seek or quest after the central point or truth. That is why I have no trouble being Jewish notwithstanding some of my theological reservations. There is nothing in Judaism that requires one park his brains with the car, before entering a synagogue.

Judaism is a thinking person's religion or ethical system. Faith comes from the doing and the thinking if it comes at all.

ruveyn



Bingo.

It is a thinking person's religion. The concepts it asks you to entertain require great intellectual rigor, Genesis can take you a lifetime to grapple with and you still would not have exhausted all there is to learn from the first few chapters alone.

I do get what little faith I have from having the text challenge me and my perception of the world. The texts disappointment does not come from challenging God. It is our task even to struggle with God, question God, debate God, argue with God, something that is uniquely Jewish because Christians never do it. The text's dissappointment comes from when we act as if God does no exist by avoiding the ethics that he has put on earth to make a better man and a better society.


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bigwheel
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10 Nov 2012, 10:53 am

The religiosity of most of the Jews I've met over the years seems to be centered on observing their various feasts and festivals while making somewhat nebulous attempts to patch the breach in the wall which supposedly occurred when Adam and Eve sinned. They celebrate the feasts without realizing all of the feasts are simply one act children's plays depicting the life..death..resurrection and eventual return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible indicates God has supernaturally blinded their eyes so that salvation might come to the Gentiles...and the veil is still over their hearts when Moses is preached. They make excellent Christians when God decides to pull off their blinders. Would highly recommend to all the TV ministry of Rabbi Kirt Schneider. Should be able to pick him up on cable or satellite with his show...Discovering the Jewish Jesus. He blends the Old Testament and New Testament into a seamless whole. Would be enough to convert me if I was a Jew.

http://www.discoveringthejewishjesus.com/



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10 Nov 2012, 11:21 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm a Lutheran myself. My suggestion to the OP is to know that God isn't a monster taking pleasure in your suffering and damnation. Rather, take heart that he's taken all of your sins on himself, and that you are forgiven. So, I wouldn't sweat breaking the sixth in thought.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As a fellow Lutheran, I agree. Unfortunately, I am in the same boat as the OP. People assume I am like all the hard-line fundamentalists simply because I am a Christian.


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ruveyn
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10 Nov 2012, 12:02 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

As a fellow Lutheran, I agree. Unfortunately, I am in the same boat as the OP. People assume I am like all the hard-line fundamentalists simply because I am a Christian.


Has your church worked hard enough to distance itself from the Evangelical, Book of Revelations crazy christians?

There are two kinds of christians: Book of Revelation Christians and Sermon on the Mount Christians.

Also decent Christian Churches should work on purging the Gospel According to John from their cannon.

ruveyn