I guarantee you that every "violent" verse is take

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Tequila
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14 Jan 2013, 12:05 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Some rabid Christians in America try to blow up abortion clinics.I can't tell you how many times a bible thumper has told me I'm going to Hell because of a thing so simple as the T -shirt I had on(Led Zepplin),or the music I listened to,or my ideas.


These people are a small minority in Christianity. How many terrorist attacks by extremist Christians have there been in the last ten years?

There are terrorist attacks by Islamist extremists nearly every single day.

As for the Sufis: they seem to be the more 'spiritual' followers of Islam and suffer persecution from other Muslims, particularly in Iran, where the crazed fanatics running the country are considering an outright ban on Sufism.



Last edited by Tequila on 14 Jan 2013, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Misslizard
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14 Jan 2013, 12:19 pm

Just Google pipebomb in Arkansas, I haven't looked up other states but this seems like a lot of Christians with bombs.The local school has already had two bomb threats this year and even Mal Wart,but I think that they were empty threats.

Yes,the Sufi's are very peaceful,nothing wrong with Rumi and they had some awesome pomegranate liquor.And they get to whirl.
Off subject,
Just curious,you seem to be into movies,ever see "Winter's Bone"?


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14 Jan 2013, 12:49 pm

salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
What did America do during the Aerican Revolution? Fight against the British


Did the Americans try to invade Britain in the 18th century and try to covert Britons into being Americans? That would be a more apt way of putting it.

The Islamic "self-defence" excuse is a lie, as GGPViper points out. It's a religion of war and conflict, started by a 7th century Arab warlord.


Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die". Muslims did invade lands conquered by the Romans and Persains, considering that they were at war with them and both empires were threats to the Muslims and .literally attempted annhiliation on the Muslims i.e. battle of Mutah., but never throughout history have Muslims actually went to peoples houses and said convert or die, and if they did, it probably wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Study the Caliphate of those 4 and tell me what you learned about their justice in dealing with Non Muslims. Remember, their names are Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Al Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Ali ibn Abi Talib.

BTW, Muslims are terrorists for invading other lands? I never knew that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were non existent. oh wait......

Only being half awake and without googling it, the aftermath of the siege of Constantinople comes to mind.


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Evinceo
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14 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

Cei wrote:
Evinceo wrote:
Okay, but is it a good idea to have a god who allows his subjects to kill in self defense?


You'd rather not be allowed to kill in self-defense? Really? And what do you think is the moral thing to do if some thug breaks into your house, for instance? Hug them? Call the police who won't get there for ten minutes, so they can very nicely, peacefully, and calmly arrest the guy?


I never said self-defense was a bad idea, I just wondered if it's a good idea for a holy book to explicitly support the notion. I don't think most people in a home-defense scenario are thinking of Bible/Quran verses, but plenty of terrorists/murderers/hatemongers are. Or are they?



Tequila
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14 Jan 2013, 1:48 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Only being half awake and without googling it, the aftermath of the siege of Constantinople comes to mind.


That is a barefaced, racist, Islamophobic lie put about by those people (i.e. the descendants of apes and pigs and Christians) who hate all Muslims. As are my examples.



Last edited by Tequila on 14 Jan 2013, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GGPViper
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14 Jan 2013, 1:56 pm

salad wrote:
Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die". Muslims did invade lands conquered by the Romans and Persains, considering that they were at war with them and both empires were threats to the Muslims and .literally attempted annhiliation on the Muslims i.e. battle of Mutah., but never throughout history have Muslims actually went to peoples houses and said convert or die, and if they did, it probably wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Study the Caliphate of those 4 and tell me what you learned about their justice in dealing with Non Muslims. Remember, their names are Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Al Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Hmm... that Ali fellow sounds familiar. Now *where* have I seen his name before?

Oh, silly me...

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

There you are...

Hmm (v. 2.0)... A few more of those names seem familiar... Abu Bakr? Umar?

Oh, silly me (v. 2.0)...

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59 :
When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."

Sorry for leaving out Uthman. But last time I checked, he was the least respected of the Rashidun caliphs anyway.



MCalavera
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14 Jan 2013, 3:43 pm

Looks like it's no longer a guarantee.



Tequila
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14 Jan 2013, 4:02 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Looks like it's no longer a guarantee.


Gone awful quiet in here, hasn't it?

So what did you do at the weekend?



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14 Jan 2013, 4:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Looks like it's no longer a guarantee.


Gone awful quiet in here, hasn't it?

So what did you do at the weekend?


Studying. Just for the fun of it.

And also a bit of basketball.



salad
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14 Jan 2013, 4:19 pm

Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die".


I do hate liars. Islamic or Islamised liars even more so:

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
However, forced conversions have occurred during Islamic history but rarely has it been official government policy. Noted cases include the conversion of Samaritans to Islam at the hands of the rebel Ibn Firāsa, conversions in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and Andalusia, as well as in Persia under the Safavid dynasty where Sunnis were converted to Shi'ism and Jews were converted to Islam. A form of forced conversion became institutionalized during the Ottoman Empire in the practice of devşirme, a human levy in which Christian boys were seized and collected from their families (usually in the Balkans), enslaved, converted to Islam, and then trained for high ranking service to the sultan.

...

Mughal ruler Aurangzeb cherished the ambition of converting India into a land of Islam. For this, he encouraged forced religious conversions and destroyed thousands of Hindu temples during his reign. During Tipu Sultan's invasion of Malabar in the late 18th century, he forcefully converted over 400,000 Hindus to Islam. During the Moplah Riots of 1921 in Kerala, Muslim Mappilas forcibly converted thousands of Hindus to Islam and killed all those who refused to apostatise. During the Noakhali genocide of Hindus in 1946, several thousand Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam by Muslim mobs.

In 1998 Prankote massacre, 26 Kashmiri Hindus were beheaded by Islamist militants after their denial of converting into Islam. The militants struck when the villagers refused demands from the gunmen to convert to Islam and prove their conversion by eating beef.

I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, off with you, you lying liar.


1. Name calling and insulting can get you reported on this website. Refrain from such ignorance in your posts.

2. I wasn't lying. I said later in my post if it did occur, it wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous, you mentioned the least righteous empires in history, after the 4 righteous caliphates there have been few actually righteous caliphates, although Umar ibn Adul Aziz was among the fifth. the 4 are abu bakr, umar, uthman, and ali.

3. making a mistake isn't lying, and even still i mentioned i could be wrong, but I'm positive during the 4 caliphates there were no incidents of injustice to non Muslim citizens, and if any, were corrected by the 4. I studied the 4 very well and am positive were among the most just rulers in history. Now the guy above me mentioned stories that I would have to look into and study before giving a final judgement. I haven't taken Islamic History or looked into it in years, so I will admit that my knowledge on this topic has been quite rusty. In fact, the guy above me made excellent points and used tons of facts and evidence, which I respect, and I am not going to deny that I have to do research more into this for an answer. The 4 were praised by the Jews and Christians alike, and the stories mentioned above, I will have to evaluate the context of the sayings and ask scholars for the reason of the above hadiths.



Tequila
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14 Jan 2013, 4:33 pm

salad wrote:
1. Name calling and insulting can get you reported on this website. Refrain from such ignorance in your posts.


I'm not taking any notice of anyone (save the mods) who tries to boss me about and tell me what to do. Understand that?

We don't live under the Islamists in this country. Yet.

salad wrote:
2. I wasn't lying.


Yes, you were. You said:

salad wrote:
Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history,


If that's not a barefaced lie, I don't know what is.

salad wrote:
I said later in my post if it did occur, it wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous, you mentioned the least righteous empires in history, after the 4 righteous caliphates there have been few actually righteous caliphates, although Umar ibn Adul Aziz was among the fifth. the 4 are abu bakr, umar, uthman, and ali.


That's GGPViper's arena, not mine.

salad wrote:
13. making a mistake isn't lying, and even still i mentioned i could be wrong, but I'm positive during the 4 caliphates there were no incidents of injustice to non Muslim citizens, and if any, were corrected by the 4.


I'm sorry, but you can't make a bold claim like that because it was a thousand years ago and you were never there. I wouldn't take the words of Islamic apologists with any seriousness.

Anyway, I'm not particularly interested in what happened Allah knows how many centuries ago. The modern day is more important, frankly.



salad
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14 Jan 2013, 7:28 pm

Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
1. Name calling and insulting can get you reported on this website. Refrain from such ignorance in your posts.


I'm not taking any notice of anyone (save the mods) who tries to boss me about and tell me what to do. Understand that?

We don't live under the Islamists in this country. Yet.

salad wrote:
2. I wasn't lying.


Yes, you were. You said:

salad wrote:
Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history,


If that's not a barefaced lie, I don't know what is.

salad wrote:
I said later in my post if it did occur, it wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous, you mentioned the least righteous empires in history, after the 4 righteous caliphates there have been few actually righteous caliphates, although Umar ibn Adul Aziz was among the fifth. the 4 are abu bakr, umar, uthman, and ali.


That's GGPViper's arena, not mine.

salad wrote:
13. making a mistake isn't lying, and even still i mentioned i could be wrong, but I'm positive during the 4 caliphates there were no incidents of injustice to non Muslim citizens, and if any, were corrected by the 4.


I'm sorry, but you can't make a bold claim like that because it was a thousand years ago and you were never there. I wouldn't take the words of Islamic apologists with any seriousness.

Anyway, I'm not particularly interested in what happened Allah knows how many centuries ago. The modern day is more important, frankly.


check this out and we'll see who has the last word:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_s ... amic_state



Tequila
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14 Jan 2013, 8:16 pm

No, these people will have the last word.



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14 Jan 2013, 8:22 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Some rabid Christians in America try to blow up abortion clinics.I can't tell you how many times a bible thumper has told me I'm going to Hell because of a thing so simple as the T -shirt I had on(Led Zepplin),or the music I listened to,or my ideas.

And there is Christian Identity, a bunch of violent, evil sob's

I'm sure some Islamic areas are backward and violent,but I can judge only on how I have been treated by the few Muslims I have met.They were very nice people and I very much enjoyed their company.Most were Sufi.


I love having bible thumpers (or anyone else) tell me I'm going to hell. :D

The thing to remember about Muslims as opposed to Christians is they they are responsible for considerably more (to put it mildly) acts of terror in recent decades.
Those weren't Presbyterians that flew airliners into the WCT.....

Islamic Terrorism Resume


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salad
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14 Jan 2013, 9:41 pm

Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Some rabid Christians in America try to blow up abortion clinics.I can't tell you how many times a bible thumper has told me I'm going to Hell because of a thing so simple as the T -shirt I had on(Led Zepplin),or the music I listened to,or my ideas.

And there is Christian Identity, a bunch of violent, evil sob's

I'm sure some Islamic areas are backward and violent,but I can judge only on how I have been treated by the few Muslims I have met.They were very nice people and I very much enjoyed their company.Most were Sufi.


I love having bible thumpers (or anyone else) tell me I'm going to hell. :D

The thing to remember about Muslims as opposed to Christians is they they are responsible for considerably more (to put it mildly) acts of terror in recent decades.
Those weren't Presbyterians that flew airliners into the WCT.....

Islamic Terrorism Resume


19 Muslims. how many muslims exist? 1.5 billion. not even ..001 percent of the population.



salad
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14 Jan 2013, 9:43 pm

Evinceo wrote:
Cei wrote:
Evinceo wrote:
Okay, but is it a good idea to have a god who allows his subjects to kill in self defense?


You'd rather not be allowed to kill in self-defense? Really? And what do you think is the moral thing to do if some thug breaks into your house, for instance? Hug them? Call the police who won't get there for ten minutes, so they can very nicely, peacefully, and calmly arrest the guy?


I never said self-defense was a bad idea, I just wondered if it's a good idea for a holy book to explicitly support the notion. I don't think most people in a home-defense scenario are thinking of Bible/Quran verses, but plenty of terrorists/murderers/hatemongers are. Or are they?


Why such contradictions?? the highest honor in America is dying as a veteran. why can't the same honor be given to a Muslim who defends his religion.