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skafather84
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14 Aug 2008, 2:05 pm

patternist wrote:
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he's a devil's advocate. if you observe the world around you and study it, you find no evidence of what he claims. however, he plays the devil's advocate against evidence and fact. the "well, what if god is real".


I think faith is beyond fact and evidence. After years of being a hard-and-fast seeing-is-believing-type, I realized that this is essentially bad for my emotions and well-being. There are many things that are true, if you believe them to be. I retract my former statement about devil's advocacy. You would have to intend to be a devils advocate to be one.


and there you go being a devil's advocate against fact and evidence.

the real fact is it doesn't matter if you believe something is true or not. the 9/11 truthers believe with their whole being that 9/11 was a part of a varying sized conspiracy but that doesn't make it any more true or real.

i don't think it has to be intentional...i think it's just the way a true free market of ideas work. in fact, it works better to have an opposing side that actually believes what they're saying instead of someone simply just trying to look at another angle.



patternist
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14 Aug 2008, 2:11 pm

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and there you go being a devil's advocate against fact and evidence.


Nope. Fact and evidence are fine.
Just that some things do not operate in their jurisdiction.



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14 Aug 2008, 2:14 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Fnord, don't be an ass.

He has a point though, at this point, there is no empirical evidence of such claims, of such beings to actually exist, it is reasonable to think that demons and possessions came to mind from lack of answers, and in my opinion, considering demon possesion when doctors are having troubles getting an answer, can still be dangerous, it has been known that at a later time an answer is found (e.g. autism, aspegers, savant, schizophrenia)


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greenblue
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14 Aug 2008, 2:29 pm

slowmutant wrote:
If I were truly a medievalist, I would reject science and view the world through a purely religious lens. I would assume the Sun revolves around the Earth and ignore anyone who says otherwise. I'd think blood-letting and trepannig were cutting-edge medicine.

Well, yes, we can see that the Catholic Church and other branch of Christianity had adapted to modern times and accepted science, especially the Catholic Church, although there are some fundamentalists that, still, they reject modern medicine over prayer :roll:

And, well, one of the reasons a support secularism over crazy stuff ;)


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skafather84
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14 Aug 2008, 2:39 pm

patternist wrote:
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and there you go being a devil's advocate against fact and evidence.


Nope. Fact and evidence are fine.
Just that some things do not operate in their jurisdiction.



nope.

some things operate to help describe the world to people in areas they don't comprehend.



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14 Aug 2008, 2:44 pm

Fnord wrote:
There is no evidence to support the existance of angels, demons, or other non-corporeal beings. To believe otherwise is to maintain a delusional state of mind. Some people can't help it, though. Pity them.

slowmutant wrote:
Fnord, don't be an ass.

greenblue wrote:
He has a point though, at this point, there is no empirical evidence of such claims, of such beings to actually exist, it is reasonable to think that demons and possessions came to mind from lack of answers, and in my opinion, considering demon possesion when doctors are having troubles getting an answer, can still be dangerous, it has been known that at a later time an answer is found (e.g. autism, aspegers, savant, schizophrenia)

Some people perceive statements of obvious truth as rudeness, and thus feel justified in responding with rudeness of their own. Others consider requests for "Proof Of Claim" ("Show Cause" in legalese) to be an even greater social offense. Personally, I consider adherence to a baseless belief to be an insult of the first order, but only to the person holding the belief. The ignorant are their own worst enemies; they know only what they believe to be real, and disregard all else.

What would convince me of the existance of Angels and/or Demons would be to meet one, face-to-face. Nothing less will suffice.


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Averick
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14 Aug 2008, 2:55 pm

True, and if you hold claim to such an event, people would take you as a loon.



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14 Aug 2008, 3:04 pm

I believe not in magic but rather in the possibility of it.



skafather84
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14 Aug 2008, 3:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
What would convince me of the existance of Angels and/or Demons would be to meet one, face-to-face. Nothing less will suffice.


reproducability for me or if one-time then it has to be with all elements of other, more reasonable options being eliminated.



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14 Aug 2008, 4:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
What would convince me of the existance of Angels and/or Demons would be to meet one, face-to-face. Nothing less will suffice.

But you could die if that happens, and then, no evidence would exist rather than a mysterious heart attack :P

On the other hand, being a lot less drastic, you would have to proof that what you saw was real and that it wasn't an illusion, hallucinations, dream or even false memory implants.


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TimT
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15 Aug 2008, 8:54 am

slowmutant wrote:
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Perhaps you would like to learn about the ultimate source of power, justice, love, protection and provision. Take a look at orderofsaintpatrick.org

Hello, TimT. I've been visiting that site for a while now. Is this the kind of order to which only monastics can belong? I'm Christian as well and I'm very intrigued by what you've been talking about.
(finally getting back to the forum)
This "Order" is still just a website, although there has been some interest in living out the Celtic church model. If God wills, it could become more than it is. Pray about it.

It was made up in response to the Order of Saint Luke the Physician which only deals in healing prayer. It has a good track record of healings. It has been infiltrated by occultists because they don't use the gifts of the Holy Spirit and don't have deliverance as well.

I'm out on this thread, learning about the current beliefs of unbelievers in Jesus.



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15 Aug 2008, 9:05 am

greenblue wrote:
Well, yes, we can see that the Catholic Church and other branch of Christianity had adapted to modern times and accepted science, especially the Catholic Church, although there are some fundamentalists that, still, they reject modern medicine over prayer.

And, well, one of the reasons a support secularism over crazy stuff.
Most Christians today accept healing prayer and medicine as working together. The Humanists dig up the extraordinary to ridicule the norm. And secularists 'buy' it because it fits into their world view.

The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.



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15 Aug 2008, 9:08 am

Averick wrote:
True, and if you hold claim to such an event, people would take you as a loon.
You mean "majority rules" on matters of truth? That the minority voice of Galileo must have been wrong because he was a loon?



Fnord
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15 Aug 2008, 9:56 am

greenblue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What would convince me of the existance of Angels and/or Demons would be to meet one, face-to-face. Nothing less will suffice.

But you could die if that happens, and then, no evidence would exist rather than a mysterious heart attack :P

On the other hand, being a lot less drastic, you would have to proof that what you saw was real and that it wasn't an illusion, hallucinations, dream or even false memory implants.

Death is only an option.

:twisted:


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Averick
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15 Aug 2008, 10:03 am

TimT wrote:
Averick wrote:
True, and if you hold claim to such an event, people would take you as a loon.
You mean "majority rules" on matters of truth? That the minority voice of Galileo must have been wrong because he was a loon?

Yes but if I'm compelled to admit seeing the Holy Mother in my toilet some day, I'd better have some turds in a nice shape to show others in disbelief; BTW, I'd charge five dollars at the door. :lol:



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15 Aug 2008, 11:20 am

Averick, don't be an ass. :roll: