Do you think war with Russia can still happen after all?

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friedmacguffins
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29 Dec 2016, 6:40 pm

Although they may be nothing more than secular opportunists, stringing words together, I tend to agree with the prophecies of Emanuel Minos and Henry Gruver.



Jacoby
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29 Dec 2016, 6:48 pm

androbot01 wrote:
I find Obama's behavior in this bizarre. First Israel and now Russia. Today he has turfed out 35 Russian diplomats.

I don't think it will amount too much though. It is almost like a tantrum. Trump will reverse everything, he is already allied with Putin.

It's a bit early for things to go nuclear though. That will start in the Middle East.


That is essentially what it is and here we were arguing about how Trump is this guy who throws temper tantrums and look at Obama now. The question is, how much can he screw things up in the next 3 weeks? He does not seem to be gracefully exiting, I'm sure his list of pardons will be very interesting.



Kiprobalhato
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30 Dec 2016, 1:38 am

androbot01 wrote:
I find Obama's behavior in this bizarre. First Israel and now Russia. Today he has turfed out 35 Russian diplomats.

I don't think it will amount too much though. It is almost like a tantrum. Trump will reverse everything, he is already allied with Putin.

It's a bit early for things to go nuclear though. That will start in the Middle East.


not much of a "tantrum" in israel's case. i'd say he's finally coming to his senses there, if a little too late.


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adifferentname
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30 Dec 2016, 3:36 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Despite what the mainstream media will tell you ( :wink: ) history has pretty thoroughly supported the intervention in Libya.


History as written by whom? Also, since when was Amnesty International the mainstream media?

Quote:
Two countries started to collapse at the same time for similar reasons. We intervened in one and not the other. It's as close to a perfect experiment as you could get in global politics, although of course there are still significant differences between the two countries.


Syria and Libya's destinies were tied together on that score. Clinton, Obama and friends are largely responsible for the entire mess. All the West gains from intervention is new enemies.

Quote:
If Libya is a giant crater, what is Syria?


A global exporter of Hillary Clinton's hubris.



Jacoby
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30 Dec 2016, 9:31 am

Putin's response is great, he will not be expelling anyone from Russia or take any retaliatory measures as he recognizes this as the dying throes of Obama's presidency. What a sad and pathetic man, Obama having one of the least graceful exits from the presidency ever. I hope they investigate everyone, these people are scared for their own asses and it's obvious.



The_Walrus
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30 Dec 2016, 10:10 am

Jacoby wrote:
Libya was so much better off with Gaddafi, Libya and Syria are the Obama administration's invasion of Iraq scale mistake as far foreign policy goes.

To summarise then:

- Intervention is a mistake
- Non-intervention is a mistake
- Castro BAD
- Gaddafi GOOD
- Assad ???

Putin's outdone Obama here. If Obama does nothing then he's seen as weak and Russia is emboldened. Obama takes decisive action and Putin extends the hand of friendship, making Obama seem like a paranoid, aggressive fool. A perfect Xanatos gambit.



Jacoby
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30 Dec 2016, 10:27 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Libya was so much better off with Gaddafi, Libya and Syria are the Obama administration's invasion of Iraq scale mistake as far foreign policy goes.

To summarise then:

- Intervention is a mistake
- Non-intervention is a mistake
- Castro BAD
- Gaddafi GOOD
- Assad ???

Putin's outdone Obama here. If Obama does nothing then he's seen as weak and Russia is emboldened. Obama takes decisive action and Putin extends the hand of friendship, making Obama seem like a paranoid, aggressive fool. A perfect Xanatos gambit.


strawman, non-sequitur

Make a coherent argument so I can respond to this. What are you implying? What does Castro have to do with anything? If you think the 'intervention' into Libya was good or justified thing then you are uneducated about the situation or as delusional as the most ardent Iraq War supporters. What do you need to know? What is this about intervention being good? I think as a mod you should probably check yourself from carrying nonsense in from other threads to make posts against me personally, if you don't feel like having a discussion then I would say it was an attack.



EzraS
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30 Dec 2016, 6:06 pm

I'm really glad Putin decided to take the high road and responded the way he did. Obama could have left office on a high note with lifting the ban on Cuban cigars. But no, he takes this route instead and just makes himself look petty and vindictive over still completely unproven allegations.



friedmacguffins
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30 Dec 2016, 6:17 pm

We are not customarily supposed to presume that someone is guilty.

But, Putin is accused of undermining Hillary and promoting Trump.

Saying that he will cooperate with Trump is not necessarily taking the high road.

Also, is Russia in a defense pact with a heavily-Stalinist Israel.

Is ISIS an invention of Obama, as Trump claimed.

Proxies of BRICS and NATO can drag us into war, irrespective of Putin's diplomacy.



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Dec 2016, 6:18 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Libya was so much better off with Gaddafi, Libya and Syria are the Obama administration's invasion of Iraq scale mistake as far foreign policy goes.

To summarise then:

- Intervention is a mistake
- Non-intervention is a mistake
- Castro BAD
- Gaddafi GOOD
- Assad ???

Putin's outdone Obama here. If Obama does nothing then he's seen as weak and Russia is emboldened. Obama takes decisive action and Putin extends the hand of friendship, making Obama seem like a paranoid, aggressive fool. A perfect Xanatos gambit.


They see Assad as good, all Trump-supporters Americans like Assad - I am starting to understand Trump-Americans' reasoning, it is quite simply really: they (yes all of them) view all Arabs and Middle-Easterns (except Israel) as barbarians/savages/terrorists/ISIS .....or at the very least, as mindless cattle, and therefore they don't mind at all, in fact, they encourage, to assign/keep blood-thirsty dictators to keep ruling the Arab world and MEA as "shepherds" of the "cattle" people (the Arabs/middle-easterns) to keep them at bay.



Jacoby
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30 Dec 2016, 8:31 pm

That's nonsense that all Trump supporters see all Arabs and Middle Easterners as barbarians or terrorists or whatever and I resent the insinuation, it's not the US's job to bring civilization and democracy to all parts of the world. The US shouldn't be responsible policing the world, our interest in the Middle East should be to destroy ISIS and to preserve stability on the ground as it it is in this anarchy that extremist groups gain power. Otherwise we should not be there, I have no interest in nation building. Would you say Libya is better off today than it was under Gaddafi? The stupidity of Obama's foreign policy will reverberate for decades.



EzraS
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30 Dec 2016, 11:40 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
We are not customarily supposed to presume that someone is guilty.

But, Putin is accused of undermining Hillary and promoting Trump.

Saying that he will cooperate with Trump is not necessarily taking the high road.


I meant Putin is taking the high road by not retaliating against Obama's sanctions. Saying he wants good diplomatic relations with United Sates is a good thing. Obama out to pick a fight with three weeks left in his presidency is a bad and stupid thing. Likely Hillary would have also pursued a hostile attitude towards Russia. I think the two leaders of the two most powerful nations on earth getting along with each other is a good thing.

And the accusations so far still have no viable proof to back them up. And it seems unlikely they ever will have any solid proof. All that's known for certain is that someone played a very basic phishing scam on John Podesta that could have been perpetrated by anyone.



Kiprobalhato
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31 Dec 2016, 3:40 am

a random thought, but despite his friendliness with putin i really don't think trump will go as far as to completely roll over when/if a threat to the sovereignty of a country like ukraine, emerges. i understand how they might feel threatened.

Jacoby wrote:
...it's not the US's job to bring civilization and democracy to all parts of the world. The US shouldn't be responsible policing the world...


right. the united states should focus on providing its own citizens with goddamned clean water before it even thinks about waging war in the ME under the guise of "nation building".


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The_Face_of_Boo
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31 Dec 2016, 4:47 am

Then pack your dozens of military bases in the Middle East and leave; will Trump do that?



xile123
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31 Dec 2016, 5:28 am

dcj123 wrote:
I probably shouldn't dare say that Putin is actually the only sane world leader I trust with a powerful red button...

Putin has only ever wanted to protect his best interest, rather good or bad. Destroying the planet is not in his best interest.

Russia is not evil and America is not that great actually.

Verbally attacking a world leader and calling them a dictator is not how you make peace. I am not fans of any of them and don't doubt shady stuff from either party but being able to have dinner with someone is better for peace. I don't see calls for peace from Russia or the right as a bad thing and consider this, if Putin and Trump are in fact in bed with one another, why would he press a powerful button when he can wait a few weeks and get what he wants?

Russia isn't nuking anything unless giving no choice.

Oh and another thing about Russians,

If they can't exist, then nothing will be allowed to exist.

History is good and teach us great things, look at how counties solve problems, they have unexpected gaps but largely stay the same.

Russia keeps to Russia and only act when you piss them off.

Russia will die when there is a world government, they will never be under such a system and the problems they are having now is related to UN. The best outcome is for this process to last as long as possible and pray they have a long fuse, some of them don't, I think Putin might. They will probably take half the world with them when they go but somethings are handle behind closed doors and the world never sees it, lets hope that is one of them. In the meantime there will be peace, saber rattling is nothing to them and probably did it this morning before breakfast.



Good post, QFT.



xile123
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31 Dec 2016, 5:29 am

dcj123 wrote:
Also for the record, it might not be socially acceptable to say, but the only reason Russia is on the offensive at all is because America failed to stabilize the middle east which goes back to their best interest. Communications would go better with Russia if everyone took their threats of nuclear war as compliments. You alway have two opinions with Russia, you can do what they say or die but how many times have they really pressed the button.


What about the fact America tried to bring Ukraine into NATO and the EU? Also worth mentioning the proposed missile shield (anti-nuke) in Poland...