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K_Kelly
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03 Jan 2017, 1:42 pm

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Why are people concerned about Iran developing nukes, but not about North Korea?

What's the difference between Kim Jun Un and Iran's leader?



0_equals_true
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03 Jan 2017, 3:12 pm

The short answer is the US and allies are.

It is party down to range though. Japan/South Korea should be most concerned. However China is growing tired of North Korea and may well intervene.

NK's game is to maintain a state of war so they justify to their citizens the abject conditions they live under.

NK has done it before. NK uses nuclear proliferation to extort aid. That is the primarily motivator rather than anything else.

By the sounds of things the situation in the NK is extremely volatile. I think it is unlikely to go on more than a decade longer.

NK has unique geography which makes its deliberate isolation more feasible. However it is getting less and less feasible to do this.

If China cuts of the umbilical cord NK will fall.



Lunella
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03 Jan 2017, 3:55 pm

NK was a minor obsession for me for a while.
It's fascinating to watch them refuse to join in with the rest of the world and let their country be so messed up. I can't see it going on for more than another decade either.
A great analogy I read was messing with NK is like poking a hornets nest that was recently poked. There is a lot of propaganda and fake news with NK though.

I like this YT channel when they upload some episodes of "Now on my way to meet you" which is basically about NK defectors.


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03 Jan 2017, 4:19 pm

K_Kelly wrote:
Article

Why are people concerned about Iran developing nukes, but not about North Korea?

What's the difference between Kim Jun Un and Iran's leader?

People are much MORE concerned about North Korea than Iran.

The reason people like Trump are making such a big fuss about Iran is because the world is trying to normalise relations with Iran and help them pursue a peaceful nuclear power program. There is disagreement and controversy. Contrastingly, nobody really wants to normalise relations with North Korea (France doesn't even recognise its existence). There's no controversy.



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03 Jan 2017, 6:20 pm

Because once a country has nukes there are no non horrible options.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Jan 2017, 2:28 am

Lunella wrote:
NK was a minor obsession for me for a while.
It's fascinating to watch them refuse to join in with the rest of the world and let their country be so messed up. I can't see it going on for more than another decade either.
A great analogy I read was messing with NK is like poking a hornets nest that was recently poked. There is a lot of propaganda and fake news with NK though.

I like this YT channel when they upload some episodes of "Now on my way to meet you" which is basically about NK defectors.




Sad stories indeed. :-(

But....have you noticed they put some kind of towel on their upper legs? lol



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04 Jan 2017, 3:50 am

despite all they have to put up with, i guess china likes having a buffer zone between them and the west-aligned SK.

most everybody pretty much agrees NK has to change its ways. with iran, there's much less in the way of a consensus.

when there's no consensus, there's bickering. and that's what you hear.


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04 Jan 2017, 8:55 am

Iran needs to change back to what it was before, a civilized normal society:




Then the downfall of this civilization:

"Less than 3 weeks after Islamic Regime gained power in Iran, it started attacking women rights by enforcing Hijab and other reactionary Islamic Laws on Women. Women movement reacted and on March 8th, 1979, more than 35 thousands of them came into Tehran's Street and protest against the Islamic Regime. This documentary film is made by a French film crew and is in french originally which was translated to English by a member of Iran Solidarity - Vancouver.

The very first demonstration by the Iranian women against compulsory Hijab on March 8, 1979.

Hassan Rouhani the Iranian regime's president President admits in his memoir that he was the Creative of compulsory Hijab.
For three days women marched against the new laws, particularly the law of mandatory Hejab, which would force women to cover their hair or suffer the 70 lashes that would be inflicted upon them. February 11, 1979: Khomeini took power after a revolution.
February 26, 1979: Khomeini announced that the Family Protection Law (1967) is abrogated.
March 3, 1979: Khomeini announced that women cannot be judges.
March 6, 1979: Khomeini announced that women are to wear Hejab in the workplace. (Hejab is referred to a scarf and long dress that covers women's whole body).
March 8, 1979: A celebration planned by groups for International Women's Day which turned into a protest against Khomeini's announcement about the veiling of women and banning of the Family Protection Law. Thousands of women gathered in the streets of Tehran asking prime minister Bazargan to hear their plea. This was the first time when Iranian regime forces, calling themselves Hezbollah (Party of God), attack demonstrations. They threw Acid and cut lips and faces of women and young girls."




It is scary how much it changed in few decades; islamism is indeed a disease ....helas it's spreading fast.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 04 Jan 2017, 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Jan 2017, 9:11 am

There was no reason for anyone to have dealings with North Korea without nukes. All they have over there is amazing co-ordinated dance routines, which they can't really export. Sometimes they do okay at the Olympics. Again, not really an export. Iran has stuff so we have reasons to talk to and about them.

North Korea kind of has to develop some horrible weapon because they're starving to death over there. Plus, Kim Jong Un is more European than his predecessors. He likes stuff, such as basketball and pop music. So he kind of wants to have dealings with other countries, as long as he doesn't lose face.

Western countries are probably not making a big deal out of NK threats because they are not probably not serious. They're making the weapons so that people will talk to them, negotiate aid with them. I imagine they'll be asked to clean up their concentration camps and other more horrendous atrocities in exchange for help, but they'll continue posturing. Waving their hands and talking about hating America and the West is part of their culture. They can't just stop doing that.



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04 Jan 2017, 9:34 am

The main reason reason the US is talking with Iran is not only for the export trade or to refrain the nuclear program.

But it's kinda for delegating Iran to take the most control in the Mideast (the lifting of sanctions will enrich it), to fight sunni extremists, to keep Arab states at bay and in return to protect US interests in the region.

It's kind of having a second Israel in the area for the US, but with even wider influence and not financially costly.



Lunella
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04 Jan 2017, 1:16 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Sad stories indeed. :-(

But....have you noticed they put some kind of towel on their upper legs? lol


Those were handkerchiefs because they cry a lot on this show in general because it's about what people went through in NK which is usually really upsetting for all of them. Some are really huge though lol


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The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Jan 2017, 2:08 pm

Lunella wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Sad stories indeed. :-(

But....have you noticed they put some kind of towel on their upper legs? lol


Those were handkerchiefs because they cry a lot on this show in general because it's about what people went through in NK which is usually really upsetting for all of them. Some are really huge though lol


I thought those things went extinct since the invention of tissues; maybe it's something cultural.

Honestly I thought it's some chastity thing there- to cover that area while sitting, especially on TV.



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04 Jan 2017, 3:02 pm

Its incorrect to say that no one is concerned about NK.

Both the American people and the American government have a fair amount of obsession with North Korea. We even made a Hollywood comedy about NK.

But Iran is higher priority.

That for many reasons:the Iranian regime's stated desire to destroy Israel, and the fact that Israel, and Saudi Arabia, and to some degree the Gulf States, are all terrified of Iran. The civil war in Yemen is really part of the rivalry between Iran and Saudi Arabia over domination of the Middle East.

The bad news is that Iran is the enemy of every Sunni regime and faction in the Middle East-like the Saudies and our gulf state friends.

But the good news is that Iran is the enemy of every Sunni regime and faction in the Middle east: like Al Queda, and ISIL., AND they are also great buddies with our client and ally- their fellow Shiites-the US installed Iraqi government (except that they keep pressuring Iraq to stop playing with the US).

Iran has oil. North Korea has mouths to feed, and is a a humanitarian catastrophe in the making. Iran is a rival regional power and has great potential as either a foe, or as a friend. So Iran is an asset, and NK is a liability.



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04 Jan 2017, 3:10 pm

I'd say plenty of people are concerned about North Korea but what can realistically be done? North Korea has now established itself as a nuclear power but even before that their conventional power could cause unfathomable bloodshed, China has always been there to prevent any preemptive attack on NK so at a stalemate we sit. NK could flatten Seoul with artillery, they've been preparing for decades and cannot be underestimated because how easily the US disposed of the million man army of Saddam Hussein since Iraq had an entirely different dynamic.

The best course of action is probably to put pressure on China, maintain the status quo as far as the DMZ goes, and prepare for all contingencies going forward with an unstable nuclear armed North Korea. I think diplomacy should be attempted, I thought what Dennis Rodman was fine and anything to improve cross cultural relations is worth doing. The Kim's have a weakness for Western culture and sport so I think it's something that could be additionally explored.

Iran too poses an understated military threat, look up the Millennium Challenge 2002 and see what happened when they wargamed it.



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08 Jan 2017, 5:42 pm

I wonder if Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan could attempt to try and stage a coup from WITHIN North Korea. It would be hard. (NK's border security is the exact OPPOSITE of the EU's border security.) However, if done right and we could arm the NK people to toss out the tyrant in charge there and help unite North and South Korea, that would create a buffer against China, which would be good against the bigger threat: China and its expansion toward Taiwan and also into the South China Sea. Then China would have to worry about a nuclear Korea and also a now alert Taiwan and Japan and thus would stop their antics in the South China Sea.