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Fnord
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16 Mar 2021, 8:00 am

MidnightRose wrote:
Just a quick question. Is the left full of brainwashed libs who all follow the party line no questions asked? Or is the left literally eating itself alive and can't agree on anything?
OR ... is "The Left" composed of millions of educated and intelligent people who can reason for themselves and, in doing so, arrive at their own conclusions?

It is easier to tell those who live by faith what to believe than those who live by reason.


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binstein
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16 Mar 2021, 6:21 pm

Fnord wrote:
OR ... is "The Left" composed of millions of educated and intelligent people who can reason for themselves and, in doing so, arrive at their own conclusions?

Not likely.

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arrive at their own conclusions?....It is easier to tell those who live by faith what to believe than those who live by reason.

"Arrive at their own conclusions" so long as it doesn't conflict with a given ideology, if it contradicts your ideology "it must be wrong", and is a human thing, we all are guilty of confirmation bias at some point.

"who live by reason." millions is a broad number for that, magical thinking can come from the left as well, and as skepticism goes, we all should be skeptics about everything, including our own ideology, and I don't think that many people on the left are willing to do that. I consider myself liberal and that puts me in the center-left on the spectrum and I see the left has its problems.

"who live by reason." The left has been acussed from the right and libertarians of putting more emphasis on feelings over facts, which might be some truth in it, even though it gets a bit ironic.



Bradleigh
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16 Mar 2021, 8:19 pm

binstein wrote:
"Arrive at their own conclusions" so long as it doesn't conflict with a given ideology, if it contradicts your ideology "it must be wrong", and is a human thing, we all are guilty of confirmation bias at some point.

"who live by reason." millions is a broad number for that, magical thinking can come from the left as well, and as skepticism goes, we all should be skeptics about everything, including our own ideology, and I don't think that many people on the left are willing to do that. I consider myself liberal and that puts me in the center-left on the spectrum and I see the left has its problems.

"who live by reason." The left has been acussed from the right and libertarians of putting more emphasis on feelings over facts, which might be some truth in it, even though it gets a bit ironic.


Is there evidence that the Left is worse at this than the Right, the "Centre", or Liberals? I think that it is easy to find examples when those in the political leanings will act more out of emotion rather than facts. As an example, those of liberal persuasion that like to think that there is a freedom and fairness to society will tend to ignore or even get angry facts that might point to inequality, or things that they might have said were of an apolitical nature might have a not very positive political aspect.

Such that someone who liked Pepe Le Pew, thinking that they are just a funny character, might not take it well to analysis that sees the character as dangerous in how it tries to play sexual assault off as a joke and ultimately harmless. A person who tries to defend the character Pepe Le Pew as just a funny character will often act out of emotional standpoint rather than the facts that are pretty clear about how problematic the character is. Not even getting into the stereotypes of French people.

At the same time I think that you will have people disagree with what is cold fact and what is emotion. A defender of Pepe Le Pew will say that they are just saying facts that PLP is just a cartoon character and thus harmless. A critic of PLP will say the fact that he is a children's character makes it all the more insidious in creating an idea of sexual assault being harmless. If we are going to discuss what in itself might be harmless and what might have larger implications, we need to get into great depths of a lot of subjects, which a lot of people cannot agree with.

A person on the Right might put forward racial crime statistics to make a point about the problems about certain people, while a person on the Left will say that these crime rates are indicators of greater systematic problems that need to be addressed. And see the putting forward of the crime statistics as actually an emotional response in wanting to justify what they already think and not wanting to question a problem of inequality. There is a pointing towards some protests turning into riots and saying it is just thuggery, with a lack of interest in seeing it as the logical result of a lack of interest in addressing problems.

If we are saying that there is a lack of interest of fact over emotions on the Left, then how are they the ones most to stand up for science in the climate of Covid, with the other sides being a sliding scale of just prefering to ignore to achieve an emotive answer of things back to normal, to the whole thing being a hoax?


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MidnightRose
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17 Mar 2021, 1:24 am

Making decisions based on emotion is pretty common among all people. We go with what feels right, and then use logic to justify it. Not saying it's good, we should try to use logic over emotions when deciding policy, but it happens to everyone. Recognizing those feelings and biases is a good first step to correcting for them.



cberg
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17 Mar 2021, 8:26 am

You're stereotyping us pretty aggressively man.

Wtf?!


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Fnord
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17 Mar 2021, 8:33 am

binstein wrote:
Fnord wrote:
OR ... is "The Left" composed of millions of educated and intelligent people who can reason for themselves and, in doing so, arrive at their own conclusions?
Not likely.
Fnord wrote:
arrive at their own conclusions?....It is easier to tell those who live by faith what to believe than those who live by reason.
"Arrive at their own conclusions" so long as it doesn't conflict with a given ideology...
Such as that of the wealthy, white, male-dominated Far Right, perhaps?  Is that what you are getting at?


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binstein
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17 Mar 2021, 5:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
Such as that of the wealthy, white, male-dominated Far Right, perhaps?  Is that what you are getting at?[/color]

No and I don't care about the far right at this point, but yes, that problem is not only from the right, the left also has that problem, so any claim like "the left are more rational" is not entirely correct, they can be "rational" up to a point until it conflicts with their ideology, whatever the far right is at this point, is irrelevant.



funeralxempire
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17 Mar 2021, 5:11 pm

binstein wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Such as that of the wealthy, white, male-dominated Far Right, perhaps?  Is that what you are getting at?[/color]

No and I don't care about the far right at this point, but yes, that problem is not only from the right, the left also has that problem, so any claim like "the left are more rational" is not entirely correct, they can be "rational" up to a point until it conflicts with their ideology, whatever the far right is at this point, is irrelevant.


The far-right controls a party. What party does the far-left control? The far-left at most have the potential to become relevant.



MidnightRose
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18 Mar 2021, 8:22 pm

Seriously. The idea that the Democrats have gone "far left," "radical," or "socialist" is just laughable. The Overton window is set further to the right in America than it is in Europe. That's why they seem extreme. Every socialist I know hates the Democratic party lol.



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18 Mar 2021, 8:38 pm

MidnightRose wrote:
Seriously. The idea that the Democrats have gone "far left," "radical," or "socialist" is just laughable. The Overton window is set further to the right in America than it is in Europe. That's why they seem extreme. Every socialist I know hates the Democratic party lol.


BreadTube needs a party. :nerdy:



binstein
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18 Mar 2021, 9:12 pm

MidnightRose wrote:
Seriously. The idea that the Democrats have gone "far left," "radical," or "socialist" is just laughable. The Overton window is set further to the right in America than it is in Europe. That's why they seem extreme. Every socialist I know hates the Democratic party lol.

Trump called democrats "radical socialists".



MidnightRose
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21 Mar 2021, 9:07 pm

Wouldn't be the first time he was wrong.



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21 Mar 2021, 9:39 pm

jimmy m wrote:
The left continues to eat its own. Cancel culture hit Teen Vogue on Monday when staffers erupted over decade-old tweets their incoming boss deleted and apologized for years ago.

That story gets more interesting...
Quote:
A senior Teen Vogue staffer who expressed concern about the racist tweets posted by the magazine's now-departed editor used the N-word in her own tweets.

Christine Davitt, a senior social media manager at Teen Vogue, wrote two tweets in 2009 to a friend identifying him as a 'ni--a,' and another in 2010 using the word 'ni--a', Fox News reported.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9385117/Teen-Vogue-staffer-supported-ouster-new-editor-used-N-word-decade-old-tweets.html


An interesting way to describe the whole "woke" phenomena, which I saw a few days ago:
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The reason why so many extremely woke people turn out to have been bigoted in the past is because bigotry used to be the best way to bully and intimidate people, but now performative anti-bigotry is the best way to bully and intimidate people. An evolving toolset for sociopaths.

Source: https://twitter.com/ShantMM/status/1364992332064378880


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binstein
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23 Mar 2021, 5:58 pm

Brictoria wrote:
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The reason why so many extremely woke people turn out to have been bigoted in the past is because bigotry used to be the best way to bully and intimidate people, but now performative anti-bigotry is the best way to bully and intimidate people. An evolving toolset for sociopaths.

This is so true.



cberg
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23 Mar 2021, 6:00 pm

I think all you anti-wokeness whiners are the real tool set for modern sociopaths.


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cberg
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23 Mar 2021, 6:02 pm

Ultimately until this buzzword-based ideology dies out with Trump in a very physical sense, the rest of us are just building a sand castle for Trump to knock over again.

Fill it with nails.


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"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
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