Question for leftists: Do you find it hard to be a leftist?

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ASPartOfMe
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21 Jul 2020, 7:05 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
'Cancel culture' is just the latest bogeyman to frighten the easily frightened

It's just a re-branding of "politically correct", the term lost it's "oomph" so they invented another. Fact is boycotts and refusing to buy products from people you don't agree with has been going on in the U.S. since before the American Revolution. If anyone is interested in learning more look up the Continental Association.

IMHO It seems more things and lesser offenses trigger boycotts these days. This in part due to people exposing themselves more on social media. Also companies that cater to or are run by the younger generations agree with the boycotters and are willing to give into demands. The boycotters seeing results naturally go for more and more. Companies give in and the cycle goes on.

Boycotts are an important part of cancel culture but economic intimidation is not the only intimidation tactic being employed be it riots, cyberattacks, or just making the persons residence an uncomfortable place to live.


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Aristophanes
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21 Jul 2020, 7:26 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
'Cancel culture' is just the latest bogeyman to frighten the easily frightened

It's just a re-branding of "politically correct", the term lost it's "oomph" so they invented another. Fact is boycotts and refusing to buy products from people you don't agree with has been going on in the U.S. since before the American Revolution. If anyone is interested in learning more look up the Continental Association.

IMHO It seems more things and lesser offenses trigger boycotts these days. This in part due to people exposing themselves more social media. Also companies that cater to or are run by the younger generations agree with the boycotters and are willing to give into demands. The boycotters seeing results naturally go for more and more. Companies give in and the cycle goes on.

Boycotts are an important part of cancel culture but economic intimidation is not the only intimidation tactic being employed.


Yeah, I agree with most of that because you're describing the process that got us to where we're at. That said, I'd disagree with the people running the companies agreeing with the boycotters and giving in, a lot of these companies have institutional problems the boycotters are attempting to point out, by focusing on an individual the company cuts ties with that person and never changes the actual institutional problems. It's a get out of jail free card, just sacrifice Bob on the 3rd floor since he got caught saying the internal company line in public and you can claim you've solved your institution's problems.

A timely example of this is Blake Neff, the writer that got fired from Tucker Carlson's show for making bigoted comments on his own time. Carlson claims that Neff doesn't represent Carlson's show, nor Fox News, and that's why they fired him, thereby inoculating them from criticism of being racist. But make no mistake the minute Carlson comes back on air he's going to be blowing dog whistles after every commercial break, and any criticism of that he'll redirect towards his firing of Neff to 'prove' he's not being racist.



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21 Jul 2020, 8:17 am

smudge wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
smudge wrote:
Hey Aristophanes, welcome back! :D

Lol, thanks Smudge. How you doing, still opinionated and slightly curmudgeonany I hope? :wink:


:P Opinionated and slightly bad-tempered maybe, not sure about curmudgeonany.

I'm doing well thanks, have had a break from everything, including a little travelling. How are you doing?

curmudgeonany/cranky/bad tempered, all kind of the same to me, lol. We'll call it one of those differences 'across the pond'. I'm doing ok, I mean as well as one can be in the plague/protest hotspot of the world. I'd write more, but I need to sleep, been up all night, that's how ended up back here after a long hiatus. I'll see you around in the future and we can argue some then, lol. :D



Mr Reynholm
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21 Jul 2020, 10:31 am

I find it extremely hard to be a leftist. Thats why I'm not one.



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21 Jul 2020, 3:35 pm

I don't find being a leftist difficult.

It's being a leftist in an increasingly self-centered society that's hard.


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21 Jul 2020, 4:55 pm

I find it hard to be a member of any tribe, since tribalism is largely responsible for most of the conflict, violence, and death in this world.


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21 Jul 2020, 6:01 pm

I've always been quite left wing and idealistic . However I'm more of a pragmatist than I used to be.What matters more to me is the party I support being able to govern and thus implement policies that will help the less fortunate . Rather than a party that is more purist, but is less likely to get elected.

That puts me at odds with the self proclaimed 'true socialists' that can be found on Twitter.


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ASPartOfMe
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22 Jul 2020, 4:26 am

Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
'Cancel culture' is just the latest bogeyman to frighten the easily frightened

It's just a re-branding of "politically correct", the term lost it's "oomph" so they invented another. Fact is boycotts and refusing to buy products from people you don't agree with has been going on in the U.S. since before the American Revolution. If anyone is interested in learning more look up the Continental Association.

IMHO It seems more things and lesser offenses trigger boycotts these days. This in part due to people exposing themselves more social media. Also companies that cater to or are run by the younger generations agree with the boycotters and are willing to give into demands. The boycotters seeing results naturally go for more and more. Companies give in and the cycle goes on.

Boycotts are an important part of cancel culture but economic intimidation is not the only intimidation tactic being employed.


Yeah, I agree with most of that because you're describing the process that got us to where we're at. That said, I'd disagree with the people running the companies agreeing with the boycotters and giving in, a lot of these companies have institutional problems the boycotters are attempting to point out, by focusing on an individual the company cuts ties with that person and never changes the actual institutional problems. It's a get out of jail free card, just sacrifice Bob on the 3rd floor since he got caught saying the internal company line in public and you can claim you've solved your institution's problems.

A timely example of this is Blake Neff, the writer that got fired from Tucker Carlson's show for making bigoted comments on his own time. Carlson claims that Neff doesn't represent Carlson's show, nor Fox News, and that's why they fired him, thereby inoculating them from criticism of being racist. But make no mistake the minute Carlson comes back on air he's going to be blowing dog whistles after every commercial break, and any criticism of that he'll redirect towards his firing of Neff to 'prove' he's not being racist.

I don't expect Fox News to agree with the boycotters(LOL). I am thinking of companies whose culture is semi woke for lack of a better expression. They can still have institutional problems but would be more open to see the light. Other companies that make products for younger generations could not care less about the merit of the boycotters' demands but see profit in promoting themselves as woke. Other companies see the loss of profit in being a target while others don't want demonstrators at their residence.


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Aristophanes
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22 Jul 2020, 6:40 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
'Cancel culture' is just the latest bogeyman to frighten the easily frightened

It's just a re-branding of "politically correct", the term lost it's "oomph" so they invented another. Fact is boycotts and refusing to buy products from people you don't agree with has been going on in the U.S. since before the American Revolution. If anyone is interested in learning more look up the Continental Association.

IMHO It seems more things and lesser offenses trigger boycotts these days. This in part due to people exposing themselves more social media. Also companies that cater to or are run by the younger generations agree with the boycotters and are willing to give into demands. The boycotters seeing results naturally go for more and more. Companies give in and the cycle goes on.

Boycotts are an important part of cancel culture but economic intimidation is not the only intimidation tactic being employed.


Yeah, I agree with most of that because you're describing the process that got us to where we're at. That said, I'd disagree with the people running the companies agreeing with the boycotters and giving in, a lot of these companies have institutional problems the boycotters are attempting to point out, by focusing on an individual the company cuts ties with that person and never changes the actual institutional problems. It's a get out of jail free card, just sacrifice Bob on the 3rd floor since he got caught saying the internal company line in public and you can claim you've solved your institution's problems.

A timely example of this is Blake Neff, the writer that got fired from Tucker Carlson's show for making bigoted comments on his own time. Carlson claims that Neff doesn't represent Carlson's show, nor Fox News, and that's why they fired him, thereby inoculating them from criticism of being racist. But make no mistake the minute Carlson comes back on air he's going to be blowing dog whistles after every commercial break, and any criticism of that he'll redirect towards his firing of Neff to 'prove' he's not being racist.

I don't expect Fox News to agree with the boycotters(LOL). I am thinking of companies whose culture is semi woke for lack of a better expression. They can still have institutional problems but would be more open to see the light. Other companies that make products for younger generations could not care less about the merit of the boycotters' demands but see profit in promoting themselves as woke. Other companies see the loss of profit in being a target while others don't want demonstrators at their residence.


Well, that’s just capitalism, companies only care about the bottom line and ignore all the other lines that define the tapestry. With our current polarization companies are being forced to choose sides, they can no longer cater to all, they’ll invariably choose where they believe the largest customer base resides. It’s different for every company too: your local gun merchant is most likely to scoff at a protest on their doorstep and actually view it as a positive because their customer base predominately comes from the opposite side of the political divide, your local natural foods store will quickly fall in line with because that’s their customer base. Ever since the rise of Madison Avenue in the 1950’s, company image has become a large part of a brand’s overall value. Cancel culture only works because the market has determined image is valuable.



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22 Jul 2020, 3:48 pm

I was raised very conservative. In the 1980s, I ran into cognitive dissonance. My values and my politics didn't match. I rethought my politics and became far left. I would find it a lot harder to be right or far-right. In fact, my politics changed because I felt I couldn't be right-wing any longer.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is an extremely sound philosophy to me. Marx et al. also have the right view of capitalism. It serves to make the rich richer and keeps the poor poorer. It also serves to maintain archaic class and caste systems in various cultures.

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22 Jul 2020, 5:30 pm

Archmage Arcane wrote:
I was raised very conservative. In the 1980s, I ran into cognitive dissonance. My values and my politics didn't match. I rethought my politics and became far left. I would find it a lot harder to be right or far-right. In fact, my politics changed because I felt I couldn't be right-wing any longer.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is an extremely sound philosophy to me. Marx et al. also have the right view of capitalism. It serves to make the rich richer and keeps the poor poorer. It also serves to maintain archaic class and caste systems in various cultures.

Gender can be assigned at birth, but if the child doesn't seem to match the gender role, don't push it. Pronouns don't really concern me. Whatever people want to be called other than 'Hey, you, you're late for dinner!'.


:hail:


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23 Jul 2020, 7:03 am

firemonkey wrote:
I've always been quite left wing and idealistic . However I'm more of a pragmatist than I used to be.What matters more to me is the party I support being able to govern and thus implement policies that will help the less fortunate . Rather than a party that is more purist, but is less likely to get elected.

That puts me at odds with the self proclaimed 'true socialists' that can be found on Twitter.


Oye vey, the champagne twitterati... there are those who waste all their time and effort on what are essentially friendly-fire incidents, attacking fellow-travellers and potential converts to the cause for not expressing themselves correctly, or for inadequate ideological purity. Not helping, guys. Really not helping.


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24 Jul 2020, 2:46 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
Drake wrote:
It doesn't have that power yet afaik. To totally wipe something out like that. Doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could. Certain movies have been purged from certain platforms, like Gone With the Wind from HBO Max. If they manage to purge from one, they would purge from all if they could.


Pretty sure that Gone With the Wind was removed due to companies, not some coordinated effort by cancel culture. HBO Max just decided that they did not want to platform a movie with a controversial element. I watched some pretty good videos recently that went over the GWtW maybe had some value in the past, but became more controversial as elements of portraying slavery as a not awful thing looked more problematic. I watched an interesting video that more went over the book and provided some useful context.



Might provide some ideas why moving away from holding up as the reputation it had might be something a responsible platform might choose to do.

Turns out it's back now:

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/g ... 234648726/

But with some stuff attached. It doesn't say if you can skip through it to get straight to the movie.

Anyway, afaik there was no mob making them do this, but this is the chilling effect cancel culture is having on the World, people aren't waiting for the mob to come to them, they're cancelling anything that might offend somebody, with that somebody being a certain kind of uppity leftist.

HBO Max is a streaming service. I assume that means they hold the rights to the film. So if they take it off, you can't watch it, even if you're willing to pay for it. It's just gone. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. If you don't want it on your platform fine, but don't just sit on the rights and make the arbitrary decision that no one gets to watch it.

The moral busybody stuff they've put in is grating, but if you can skip it, then I have little problem with it.



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24 Jul 2020, 3:51 pm

Drake wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Drake wrote:
It doesn't have that power yet afaik. To totally wipe something out like that. Doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could. Certain movies have been purged from certain platforms, like Gone With the Wind from HBO Max. If they manage to purge from one, they would purge from all if they could.


Pretty sure that Gone With the Wind was removed due to companies, not some coordinated effort by cancel culture. HBO Max just decided that they did not want to platform a movie with a controversial element. I watched some pretty good videos recently that went over the GWtW maybe had some value in the past, but became more controversial as elements of portraying slavery as a not awful thing looked more problematic. I watched an interesting video that more went over the book and provided some useful context.



Might provide some ideas why moving away from holding up as the reputation it had might be something a responsible platform might choose to do.

Turns out it's back now:

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/g ... 234648726/

But with some stuff attached. It doesn't say if you can skip through it to get straight to the movie.

Anyway, afaik there was no mob making them do this, but this is the chilling effect cancel culture is having on the World, people aren't waiting for the mob to come to them, they're cancelling anything that might offend somebody, with that somebody being a certain kind of uppity leftist.

HBO Max is a streaming service. I assume that means they hold the rights to the film. So if they take it off, you can't watch it, even if you're willing to pay for it. It's just gone. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. If you don't want it on your platform fine, but don't just sit on the rights and make the arbitrary decision that no one gets to watch it.

The moral busybody stuff they've put in is grating, but if you can skip it, then I have little problem with it.

The right is more than welcome to complain, it’s a business and thus they’re looking for the largest market possible, if their internal numbers show your side will generate them more profit, they’ll cater to it. The right is also welcome to create their own video streaming site and buy the intellectual property to all the misogynistic and racist films it wants. Investors will make their decisions based on their bottom line, and nothing will change that in our lassez faire system.