Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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TheRobotLives
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01 Dec 2020, 5:07 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
These are the right choices I did. I did stumble along way with a few of them.
1. I went to college for IT.

What happened?

They use to say, "if you can spell IT, you can get an IT job".

Autistic people likely thrive in this field.


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01 Dec 2020, 5:11 pm

Antrax wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Yes.

Obviously.

What I'm saying is it shouldn't come as a surprise that someone in full time employment gets more wages than someone in part time employment or without a job.

They get richer that way.

It's like saying 'did you know that 99% of cats say meow and not many dogs do'.

And yeah it's about getting that first foot in the door. So many employers for the more 'basic' jobs don't want aspies esp educated aspies (who are arguably more responsible).


Obviously people who meet the criteria will be better off than people who don't meet the criteria, but that's not the point. The point is that only 2% of people who meet that criteria are in poverty, and that the criteria is largely under most people's control.

The original question I cited that statistic to answer was "How easy is is to fall into poverty if you make the right decisions?" The answer I gave was it's not easy, and I stand by that assessment. Basically it comes down to get a job and don't try to support a family unless you have the infrastructure in place.

As for employers for basic jobs not wanting aspies, yeah its depressing. One thing I find noteworthy is just how bad our employment stats are after adjusting for education and intelligence levels. Really goes to show how much a premium society puts on the social skills we're deficient in.

“If you make the right decisions” means you’ll avoid poverty. If you end up in poverty, that should tell you a decision somewhere was the wrong one, even if you didn’t recognize it as such at the time.

A common attribute of failed businesses and chronically poor people is an attachment to debt. The Bible says “a man cannot be a slave to two masters.” Being a slave to money means all the produce of your hands goes back into paying your debts. You don’t get to keep much for yourself, you aren’t free to do what you want. Avoiding debt allows you the freedom to enjoy what you make. And by being free to do what you want with your money, you become a master of it rather than a slave to it. It becomes a tool by which you can do more good for yourself and your world.

Many people fail to realize that financial institutions don’t profit from people who can master their money. They profit from people who are slaves to money. They like debt and keeping people in it for as long as possible.

There are many ways people can become poor, some who even make the best decisions when they lose control over their circumstances. But some of those people resolve never to remain victims and fight their way back. Sadly, it’s people who become victims that make the most money for people who take advantage of them. Learning how to stay in control and make your resources work for you is key to beating poverty.



TheRobotLives
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01 Dec 2020, 5:36 pm

KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


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01 Dec 2020, 11:08 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.

A lot of times there are no good reasons why people can’t do those things. I work two jobs and pick up extra one-off gigs every chance I get. One job is 3 hours away from where I live, and I happen to own property there, so it works out. But with taxes and insurance, I’m only breaking even. So I’m currently looking for a new job close by. My wife just had a baby, and since we don’t really have any connections, getting her employed is tricky. But if she ever does get a job, it will double our income from last year.

Ramsey often makes the point that with poverty/debt that people don’t really have a problem with their circumstances. As long as there’s someone else to blame, they are justified in staying poor and in debt. Before I listened to his radio show, we started piecing together logically what was holding us back. Mostly it was one medical bill after another, or I couldn’t pay my Guitar Center credit card, or a baby was sick, or the house needed a new roof, or the car wouldn’t start. We started out cutting as much crap and drama out of our lives, stopped going out to eat as much, spent a little money on Christmas vacation than a lot on crap our kids would just break anyway. We managed to pay credit cards in full without negotiating, downsized our home and paid in cash after dumping our mortgage. For many people in similar situations, it’s “I can’t do that, it doesn’t pay enough for me to pay my bills.” 8O Or...”I have my MBA. I can’t work at Walmart!”

For me, it was all about just keeping my hand in the music game. I had a part time gig at a a Catholic school working 3 hours a day. So when it turned out I didn’t have anything to do, I went to the YMCA to do cardio, weight lifting, and swimming. I ran my first marathon. I was looking to work more hours and got turned down two years in a row. Last year my wife suffered a miscarriage, one of my bosses got fired, and a few short months later I had to help my other boss clean out his office after some drama went down. I was ready to quit early this year over continued drama when COVID made all that irrelevant. So I had all this free time and immediately started applying for jobs.

In my experience, keeping my head down, my mouth shut, and putting up with whatever crap I had to just to get the tiny paycheck I had would have been the easiest way to go. If you want to stay poor, choose the path of least resistance and responsibility. Don’t expect anything from other people. Live without gratitude. It’s amazing how much simpler and easier that life is. My life is crazy complicated and stressful now. But I love it because I’m not just spinning my wheels anymore and I get a real sense of forward, upward motion. I’m not as depressed and frustrated as I used to be. And my other job? I could walk away any moment and not feel the tiniest regret. It’s an adventure, and adventures are often difficult. But also worth it. People are often too afraid of change to even try to succeed. Or they give up too soon. So it feels safer just to stay poor when you don’t have to worry about failure—or worse, winning—or what people might say. You don’t have to worry about the effort or energy that goes into winning or what it takes to stay at that level or move up. It is hard. It’s risky. Being poor is easy because there’s no effort, imagination, or risk involved.

So, yeah, I have to agree with Ramsey. For a few people, they reach this point where they start asking “WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING?!?!” They decide they are sick of their lives and resolve that things will be different. This changes their behavior because no matter what, they refuse to go back to being poor. They stop blaming circumstances or other people and become proactive in changing their circumstances and focusing on their own behavior.



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02 Dec 2020, 12:27 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
These are the right choices I did. I did stumble along way with a few of them.
1. I went to college for IT.

What happened?

They use to say, "if you can spell IT, you can get an IT job".

Autistic people likely thrive in this field.


It may have been true one time but not anymore. But the major hurdle I had was experience. Every job required multiple skills and each skill required years of experience

And, if all of these autistics got into IT which I'm skeptical of I would love to hear what they all did.

Maybe I missed something. But, it's all water under the bridge anyway since I got the f**k out of the USA, all of the personal responsibility you're entitled to nothing BS, and I'm teaching in China anyway.

I'm going to lay down some truth. You don't have a full say in how your life will turn out. Others have a stake in your life as well. Employers can choose to hire you or not as an example. The American idea that one has full control of your life and destiny is a lie.

And, why did I post this thread anyway. Maybe I'm concerned with people having cre or cranial rectal impediment and I wish to help cure this :lol:

In other words why can't the people of the USA wake up, smell the coffee and get their heads out of their asses and think?

I'm being told a person's circumstances is due to their choices they made. Little to no exceptions to this. Little to no extenuating circumstances. Life, existence is more complicated then this. If I have choices then so do others and since most of us don't live in a vacuum then aren't we all interdependant and couldn't other people's choices influence what choices we have? God f**k almighty.



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02 Dec 2020, 2:01 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I'm going to lay down some truth. You don't have a full say in how your life will turn out. Others have a stake in your life as well. Employers can choose to hire you or not as an example. The American idea that one has full control of your life and destiny is a lie.


I think card games like poker make a good analogy. You can't control the cards you're dealt in any given hand. You can only control how you act on those cards and the actions of the other players.

Poker isn't about winning a single hand. It's about winning the night. The way you do that is you make good decisions in every hand, so that when an opportunity comes along you take advantage. Play enough hands and the opportunity always comes along.

Life is a long game. Sometimes you have to wait to reap what you sow, but those that do not sow opportunities reap nothing.


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02 Dec 2020, 4:03 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
And, if all of these autistics got into IT which I'm skeptical of I would love to hear what they all did.

I was at a restaurant a few days ago, and I overheard Ford Motor Company has a special program to hire autistic people for jobs like IT.

It's exclusively for autistic people.

On the site, there is a video of autistic people discussing what they do there.

It's called "Ford Works" ...
https://corporate.ford.com/careers/incl ... works.html


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02 Dec 2020, 8:06 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
These are the right choices I did. I did stumble along way with a few of them.
1. I went to college for IT.

What happened?

They use to say, "if you can spell IT, you can get an IT job".

Autistic people likely thrive in this field.


It may have been true one time but not anymore. But the major hurdle I had was experience. Every job required multiple skills and each skill required years of experience

And, if all of these autistics got into IT which I'm skeptical of I would love to hear what they all did.

Maybe I missed something. But, it's all water under the bridge anyway since I got the f**k out of the USA, all of the personal responsibility you're entitled to nothing BS, and I'm teaching in China anyway.

I'm going to lay down some truth. You don't have a full say in how your life will turn out. Others have a stake in your life as well. Employers can choose to hire you or not as an example. The American idea that one has full control of your life and destiny is a lie.

And, why did I post this thread anyway. Maybe I'm concerned with people having cre or cranial rectal impediment and I wish to help cure this :lol:

In other words why can't the people of the USA wake up, smell the coffee and get their heads out of their asses and think?

I'm being told a person's circumstances is due to their choices they made. Little to no exceptions to this. Little to no extenuating circumstances. Life, existence is more complicated then this. If I have choices then so do others and since most of us don't live in a vacuum then aren't we all interdependant and couldn't other people's choices influence what choices we have? God f**k almighty.

The experience requirement is a smokescreen. You know that, right? I took a new job this year as a band director. This school really prides itself on its marching band. I have NEVER successfully put a band on the field in my whole career. Not for lack of trying, just I was never in a school that really supported their band. I reached way back in the memory banks and dug up all the little tricks that made things work back in college, and BOOM...did my first ever show in 20 years. The last five years was repeating beginner band every semester. I got fired from two jobs and walked away from two jobs. I have no assurances this one will last another year based on my past experiences, but it’s a big improvement. So when I start shopping around next year to see if there’s a better deal and try to renegotiate my contract, if nothing else I’ll have a good idea what other schools are doing, and that can only help me do my job better if they bring me back and I choose to stay.

Every experience required listing is a Catch-22. Sometimes they’re serious, but often not. What a lot of places do is put you through training programs so you’ll have the experience. You find that IF you make it to the 3-year mark with a company, you should expect bonuses or a raise. If that doesn’t happen, go shopping. Move up or move out.

That’s another one of those personal responsibility things. We value always telling the truth. But when people hold you back for things beyond your control, when they act like jerks, they don’t deserve the truth. You have to get ahead. Don’t say you don’t have experience. Look for different ways to log experience. Volunteer work. Church work. Internship. High school clubs/activities. Experienced programmer needed? Well, I’ve spent the last couple of years learning Python to automate making experimental music, so sure, I know numpy, pandas, keras, TensorFlow, etc. Do you have anyone who does GUIs? Because I suck at those... And that’s how a music man gets a programming gig. Nobody is going to care if I was a comp sci or data sci major in college. They care that I CAN do the job and that I’m available...and it’s really the availability thing that counts most in a small market. And if I make it in a small business for 3-5 years, I can interview in more competitive areas and HONESTLY say I have experience. If you’re actually good, you can beat out people from elite schools.

But if all you see is experience required and you don’t even try, the only person you have to blame is yourself. No, you can’t always control your circumstances. But if you do absolutely nothing to take control of what you can, that’s YOUR problem.



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02 Dec 2020, 8:13 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


Easy to be arrogant when you're rich.

I don't think these people want to help. I don't think it's coming across as if it's from a place if help. I think they want to blame poor people for being poor. Because what's the alternative? Higher taxes and accepting that maybe just maybe they're not 'self made' but instead have a variety of privileges - both internal and external.
Nobody wanted me.

Including McDonalds.

Why would a physical job employer/someone who ideally wants someone who can drive want a dyspraxic person? And that's just my circumstances - why would they want a physically more severely disabled person?

Personal responsibility assumes disabilities don't exist.


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cubedemon6073
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02 Dec 2020, 10:23 am

KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


Easy to be arrogant when you're rich.

I don't think these people want to help. I don't think it's coming across as if it's from a place if help. I think they want to blame poor people for being poor. Because what's the alternative? Higher taxes and accepting that maybe just maybe they're not 'self made' but instead have a variety of privileges - both internal and external.
Nobody wanted me.

Including McDonalds.

Why would a physical job employer/someone who ideally wants someone who can drive want a dyspraxic person? And that's just my circumstances - why would they want a physically more severely disabled person?

Personal responsibility assumes disabilities don't exist.


KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.



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02 Dec 2020, 11:02 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


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02 Dec 2020, 11:22 am

KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


Easy to be arrogant when you're rich.

I don't think these people want to help. I don't think it's coming across as if it's from a place if help. I think they want to blame poor people for being poor. Because what's the alternative? Higher taxes and accepting that maybe just maybe they're not 'self made' but instead have a variety of privileges - both internal and external.
Nobody wanted me.

Including McDonalds.

Why would a physical job employer/someone who ideally wants someone who can drive want a dyspraxic person? And that's just my circumstances - why would they want a physically more severely disabled person?

Personal responsibility assumes disabilities don't exist.


I've learned that many people don't want to admit how much of our lives are not within our control. They are also reluctant to admit that maybe, just maybe, their successes aren't entirely the result of their own inherent awesomeness.

Sh_tting on poor people is easy and it feeds into some people's need to feel superior to others. I'm poor, and I'm likely to remain so. I've worked with plenty of others in a similar position to myself, and I've found that they arrived at their current situation in a variety of ways, and very few of them got there just because of being "lazy." Most people are doing the best they can with what they have, and that's the truth.

Kindness and compassion cost nothing. In the end, I'd rather be poor and empathetic than "successful" with my head shoved firmly up my backside.


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02 Dec 2020, 11:32 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


In a way I sorta did. And, I had help though. And, certain things out of my control went right. So far so, good.

I just don't think life is as simple as American culture makes it out to be. To me, it is more nuanced and complicated.



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02 Dec 2020, 11:34 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


Easy to be arrogant when you're rich.

I don't think these people want to help. I don't think it's coming across as if it's from a place if help. I think they want to blame poor people for being poor. Because what's the alternative? Higher taxes and accepting that maybe just maybe they're not 'self made' but instead have a variety of privileges - both internal and external.
Nobody wanted me.

Including McDonalds.

Why would a physical job employer/someone who ideally wants someone who can drive want a dyspraxic person? And that's just my circumstances - why would they want a physically more severely disabled person?

Personal responsibility assumes disabilities don't exist.


I've learned that many people don't want to admit how much of our lives are not within our control. They are also reluctant to admit that maybe, just maybe, their successes aren't entirely the result of their own inherent awesomeness.

Sh_tting on poor people is easy and it feeds into some people's need to feel superior to others. I'm poor, and I'm likely to remain so. I've worked with plenty of others in a similar position to myself, and I've found that they arrived at their current situation in a variety of ways, and very few of them got there just because of being "lazy." Most people are doing the best they can with what they have, and that's the truth.

Kindness and compassion cost nothing. In the end, I'd rather be poor and empathetic than "successful" with my head shoved firmly up my backside.


Everything you said and more and this is why you're a decent mod.



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02 Dec 2020, 12:01 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
KT67 wrote:
How easy exactly is it to get full time work?

Personal responsibility is about being personally responsible for your circumstances, including if you have low IQ, limited education, few skills.

A conservative, like Dave Ramsey often asks poor people, "Why can't you mow grass, shovel snow, wash cars, or deliver pizzas?".

Ramsey will also suggest poor people "get a second job to pick up more income".

Conservatives likely think poor people are not trying hard enough.


Easy to be arrogant when you're rich.

I don't think these people want to help. I don't think it's coming across as if it's from a place if help. I think they want to blame poor people for being poor. Because what's the alternative? Higher taxes and accepting that maybe just maybe they're not 'self made' but instead have a variety of privileges - both internal and external.
Nobody wanted me.

Including McDonalds.

Why would a physical job employer/someone who ideally wants someone who can drive want a dyspraxic person? And that's just my circumstances - why would they want a physically more severely disabled person?

Personal responsibility assumes disabilities don't exist.


I've learned that many people don't want to admit how much of our lives are not within our control. They are also reluctant to admit that maybe, just maybe, their successes aren't entirely the result of their own inherent awesomeness.

Sh_tting on poor people is easy and it feeds into some people's need to feel superior to others. I'm poor, and I'm likely to remain so. I've worked with plenty of others in a similar position to myself, and I've found that they arrived at their current situation in a variety of ways, and very few of them got there just because of being "lazy." Most people are doing the best they can with what they have, and that's the truth.

Kindness and compassion cost nothing. In the end, I'd rather be poor and empathetic than "successful" with my head shoved firmly up my backside.

Much truth here.

I think a summary of what I and some others are trying to say is this: There are many ways in which people might become poor, often beyond what they can actually control. There are, on the other hand, ways of becoming poor that will most certainly make that happen. If you think about the behavior of these people in particular and avoid those things, you can avoid becoming poor. In the same way, there are paths out of poverty that may not result in making you a millionaire, but can at least break the poverty cycle. If you want to be poor, act like poor people. If you want to be rich, act like rich people.

I won’t dare consciously insult a poor person because poverty is something I’ve been struggling with half my life now. But I can’t say that I think poverty has to be a permanent reality because I’ve stabilized my family’s situation by following Ramsey’s advice. I’ve outgrown Dave Ramsey because I think what’s more important for us is a focus on values rather than debt management. We know we lack the means to deal with existing debt, so we just work on not accumulating more of it. We can return to Ramsey in the future if we want to, but something has to be done about our income first. Even Ramsey would say you’re in trouble if your plan for dealing with debt or wealth isn’t based in cold, hard reality. For the elderly and disabled, those who are genuinely unable to work on any level, no amount of Ramsey’s or Ayn Rand’s advice will ever help. Ramsey would shame you for not taking care of your family. Rand would point out that since the government is robbing you blind anyway, you might as well exploit government programs to return to you what was rightfully yours in the first place; however, it would be best if programs didn’t exist and you or your family could make the best possible decisions regarding the welfare of their own. And if you can’t value your own children, or if you are ungrateful to your mom for taking the best care of you, then shame on you.

I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to. It upsets us that we don’t get a voice in what we support. It’s frustrating. And by expressing our frustration, it sometimes gets misrepresented as us not caring about the poor, the sick, and the elderly. We do care. We want to see poverty eliminated. But we don’t want to enable bad behavior, either, and it turns into a matter of who gets to determine what bad behavior even is and how dare rich people dictate or impose morality.

There are two types of rich people: Those who leave wealth up to the individual and encourage individuals and other businesses, and those who take money from poor people while promising wealth yet only deliver excuses. You have people who are self-made, whose wealth doesn’t discriminate between any consumer, rich or poor; and you have those who only know how to feed off the needs of the desperate. Keep them poor, keep them desperate, keep them addicted, make them keep coming back with what little they have. If you want to be down on rich people, at least be down on the right ones.



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02 Dec 2020, 1:13 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to.

In this topic, the whole conservative message of self-empowerment based on personal responsibility seems to be get lost.

Instead I hear:
1. I am a victim of chance.
2. Others are to blame.
3. Conservatives are mean to poor/disabled people.
4. Excuses and self-pity.


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Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.

Be the hero of your life.