Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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KT67
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02 Dec 2020, 1:27 pm

Because you have to deal with that if you're going to deal with the idea that 'everyone's poverty or lack of employment is their own fault'. You have to deal with counter arguments.

I agree that everyone needs to live to the best of their abilities and part of that is not wasting money. Getting a job if one is available to them.

But imo the people who talk about 'scroungers' etc are wrong. I used to believe that nonsense. It's hardly ever true, more often someone is either too disabled to work (a judgement between them/their guardian, the benefits people who like to say 'no' and their doctor not something for outsiders to comment on) or looking for employment. Whatever the tabloid press like to make up.

I'd rather have money go towards free school meals than the free expensive meals politicians get at Westminster for eg.


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Antrax
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02 Dec 2020, 1:30 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


This is what I don't get. cubedemon literally doing exactly what we're all saying. Taking advantage of an opportunity that was available because of the skillset they cultivated. Seems upset because that opportunity was in China and not the U.S. and is swinging away at some strawmen that you can literally choose how your life goes. No one with an iota of life experience believes that, and no one here is arguing you can force people to hire you or something.

Also the comment about people not budging and statistics is irksome to me, as I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the entire thread that has produced stats of any kind to support any position.


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AngelRho
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02 Dec 2020, 1:42 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to.

In this topic, the whole conservative message of self-empowerment based on personal responsibility seems to be get lost.

Instead I hear:
1. I am a victim of chance.
2. Others are to blame.
3. Conservatives are mean to poor/disabled people.
4. Excuses and self-pity.


The idea that the idea that not everyone who is poor can help it is a straw man, and so often conservatives arguing it take the bait. I KNOW this isn’t always the case, so I reject the premise that conservatives believe EVERYONE is compelled to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

What we really want to say is:
1. Yes, you are a victim of chance, but you don’t have to tolerate your situation.
2. Yes, sometimes others ARE to blame. Marilyn Monroe IMO was killed by destructive, liberal attitudes that hate on authentic talent that, ironically, reduced her to nothing more than a sex object. It does happen. But you CAN make the choice to live apart from or above the influence.
3. Are we REALLY?
4. There are no excuses, only reasons. Unpack the reasons, redirect.

There ARE those who truly cannot help themselves. Conservatives don’t deny that. For everyone who CAN do, there is personal responsibility. What is lacking are people willing to admit they can change something or take control. For others, there is a fear of winning.



KT67
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02 Dec 2020, 1:49 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to.

In this topic, the whole conservative message of self-empowerment based on personal responsibility seems to be get lost.

Instead I hear:
1. I am a victim of chance.
2. Others are to blame.
3. Conservatives are mean to poor/disabled people.
4. Excuses and self-pity.


What I hear is:
Your mental health condition doesn't exist or if it does exist then it isn't as bad as you and your doctors say it is. Go get a job. Refuse your benefit. Ignore the fact that nobody wants you and go apply for hundreds more jobs. Never mind the cost those rejections had on your mental health, we've already established that doesn't matter. Remember to mask, mask, mask.

What I hear from my dr is:
Yes, your mental health is severely bad enough to not work. Take things easy. Have a medical guardian. You must take medicine every day at 11am. Stop opening yourself up for rejection.

My dr is a trained professional who has been preceeded with other trained professionals.
You guys are a bunch of strangers online.
I know who I'm listening to.


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Antrax
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02 Dec 2020, 1:53 pm

KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to.

In this topic, the whole conservative message of self-empowerment based on personal responsibility seems to be get lost.

Instead I hear:
1. I am a victim of chance.
2. Others are to blame.
3. Conservatives are mean to poor/disabled people.
4. Excuses and self-pity.


What I hear is:
Your mental health condition doesn't exist or if it does exist then it isn't as bad as you and your doctors say it is. Go get a job. Refuse your benefit. Ignore the fact that nobody wants you and go apply for hundreds more jobs. Never mind the cost those rejections had on your mental health, we've already established that doesn't matter. Remember to mask, mask, mask.

What I hear from my dr is:
Yes, your mental health is severely bad enough to not work. Take things easy. Have a medical guardian. You must take medicine every day at 11am. Stop opening yourself up for rejection.

My dr is a trained professional who has been preceeded with other trained professionals.
You guys are a bunch of strangers online.
I know who I'm listening to.


I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you. I fully acknowledge some people are too disabled to work, and I fully acknowledge people with invisible disabilities face a tough road to getting those disabilities recognized. Listen to your doctor, and try to find a situation that works for you.

Truth is this isn't the case for most people in poverty. There are many many people living in poverty because of either not knowing the right decisions, or deliberately choosing the wrongs ones because they believe it doesn't matter or something.


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cubedemon6073
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02 Dec 2020, 4:21 pm

Antrax wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


This is what I don't get. cubedemon literally doing exactly what we're all saying. Taking advantage of an opportunity that was available because of the skillset they cultivated. Seems upset because that opportunity was in China and not the U.S. and is swinging away at some strawmen that you can literally choose how your life goes. No one with an iota of life experience believes that, and no one here is arguing you can force people to hire you or something.

Also the comment about people not budging and statistics is irksome to me, as I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the entire thread that has produced stats of any kind to support any position.


I'm not upset. I'm actually happy to be away from the lunacy that is the USA. I do miss my family though back in the states. Anyway, I'm calling out BS and put out counter-arguments. And, you say I set up a strawman. What strawman? And, as for the stats you posted which is good all I was pointing out is ppl can manipulate them for their agenda.



cubedemon6073
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02 Dec 2020, 4:34 pm

Antrax wrote:
KT67 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I think the more conservative message of benevolence gets lost because we tend to focus too much on lost causes and wasteful, worthless programs we object to.

In this topic, the whole conservative message of self-empowerment based on personal responsibility seems to be get lost.

Instead I hear:
1. I am a victim of chance.
2. Others are to blame.
3. Conservatives are mean to poor/disabled people.
4. Excuses and self-pity.


What I hear is:
Your mental health condition doesn't exist or if it does exist then it isn't as bad as you and your doctors say it is. Go get a job. Refuse your benefit. Ignore the fact that nobody wants you and go apply for hundreds more jobs. Never mind the cost those rejections had on your mental health, we've already established that doesn't matter. Remember to mask, mask, mask.

What I hear from my dr is:
Yes, your mental health is severely bad enough to not work. Take things easy. Have a medical guardian. You must take medicine every day at 11am. Stop opening yourself up for rejection.

My dr is a trained professional who has been preceeded with other trained professionals.
You guys are a bunch of strangers online.
I know who I'm listening to.


I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you. I fully acknowledge some people are too disabled to work, and I fully acknowledge people with invisible disabilities face a tough road to getting those disabilities recognized. Listen to your doctor, and try to find a situation that works for you.

Truth is this isn't the case for most people in poverty. There are many many people living in poverty because of either not knowing the right decisions, or deliberately choosing the wrongs ones because they believe it doesn't matter or something.


Could it be possible that she tried to explain her situation in her past like yours truly did and she was given the same BS that she's making excuses, she should try to find work, you're owed nothing,etc? Is she mistaking general principles or is it that the conservative minded people she has met refuses to listen to what she has to say just like they refused to listen to what I had to say.

This is another reason I got out of the looney bin USA when I had the opportunity. I've had time to reflect since getting out and experiencing a different culture(s).

What I've noticed is that if something doesn't fit a person's narrative and belief system in the USA they will gaslight the f**k out of you. And, by saying "I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you" you need to know that this is gaslighting.

I've been gaslighted as well. Others will deny my experiences and will claim that I'm seeing things in absolutes or to black and white.

KT67, look up gaslighting and the defenses for it.



KT67
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02 Dec 2020, 4:39 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Antrax wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


This is what I don't get. cubedemon literally doing exactly what we're all saying. Taking advantage of an opportunity that was available because of the skillset they cultivated. Seems upset because that opportunity was in China and not the U.S. and is swinging away at some strawmen that you can literally choose how your life goes. No one with an iota of life experience believes that, and no one here is arguing you can force people to hire you or something.

Also the comment about people not budging and statistics is irksome to me, as I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the entire thread that has produced stats of any kind to support any position.


I'm not upset. I'm actually happy to be away from the lunacy that is the USA. I do miss my family though back in the states. Anyway, I'm calling out BS and put out counter-arguments. And, you say I set up a strawman. What strawman? And, as for the stats you posted which is good all I was pointing out is ppl can manipulate them for their agenda.


I would hate to be in America. I don't have actual experience living there (and it's nice for a holiday!) but it seems from what I've heard/read/seen to be a reverse USSR.

There needs to be a balance. Want a fancy TV? Buy it yourself. Want to go to hospital? OK we see that's a need and nobody would choose to have a heart attack for eg, have it free at the point of delivery. Want to go to hospital cos your nose is a bit big/boobs are a bit small? Pay for it yourself.


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cubedemon6073
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02 Dec 2020, 4:43 pm

Quote:
The idea that the idea that not everyone who is poor can help it is a straw man, and so often conservatives arguing it take the bait. I KNOW this isn’t always the case, so I reject the premise that conservatives believe EVERYONE is compelled to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.


Yet, that is how you all come across whether it is intentional or not. So, take some responsibility and fix the presentation of your message.

Quote:
What we really want to say is:
1. Yes, you are a victim of chance, but you don’t have to tolerate your situation.


Ok, are conservatives willing to provide guidance, sit down with that person, and help them through things. Are they willing to provide more funding to places like Voc Rehab. And, are they willing to sit down and explain why one has to pretend to be someone he is not to be employed?

Quote:
2. Yes, sometimes others ARE to blame. Marilyn Monroe IMO was killed by destructive, liberal attitudes that hate on authentic talent that, ironically, reduced her to nothing more than a sex object. It does happen. But you CAN make the choice to live apart from or above the influence.


Ok, are you willing to sit down with that person and provide that guidance to them?

Quote:
3. Are we REALLY?


Based upon the current way you all present then yes.

Quote:
4. There are no excuses, only reasons. Unpack the reasons, redirect.


What if one doesn't know how. Again, are you (Mr. conservative) willing to help and guide them instead of berating them.

Quote:
There ARE those who truly cannot help themselves. Conservatives don’t deny that. For everyone who CAN do, there is personal responsibility. What is lacking are people willing to admit they can change something or take control. For others, there is a fear of winning.


Yet, in the conservative's behavior that I've witnessed towards yours truly and others they do deny this. And, how do we all suss out what we all can change or not change?

And, why would one have fear of winning something? How does that even make sense at all? I've heard this bit of nonsense as well coming from self-help experts. Another reason out of others I got the hell out of the USA.



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02 Dec 2020, 4:48 pm

KT67 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Antrax wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 forget it! You will never budge conservative minded people from their position no matter what stats you use. And, stats can be made to fit your position anyway which is what they do. For me, it's all water under the bridge anyway. I have a job in China anyway. I would advise you to do what you can for yourself. I did with God and my SO's help. If you can go to china to work and go through the whole visa/2-week quarantine process then do so.

You took personal responsibility for your situation and relocated to China.

Conservatives would be proud of you. :) :)


This is what I don't get. cubedemon literally doing exactly what we're all saying. Taking advantage of an opportunity that was available because of the skillset they cultivated. Seems upset because that opportunity was in China and not the U.S. and is swinging away at some strawmen that you can literally choose how your life goes. No one with an iota of life experience believes that, and no one here is arguing you can force people to hire you or something.

Also the comment about people not budging and statistics is irksome to me, as I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the entire thread that has produced stats of any kind to support any position.


I'm not upset. I'm actually happy to be away from the lunacy that is the USA. I do miss my family though back in the states. Anyway, I'm calling out BS and put out counter-arguments. And, you say I set up a strawman. What strawman? And, as for the stats you posted which is good all I was pointing out is ppl can manipulate them for their agenda.


I would hate to be in America. I don't have actual experience living there (and it's nice for a holiday!) but it seems from what I've heard/read/seen to be a reverse USSR.

There needs to be a balance. Want a fancy TV? Buy it yourself. Want to go to hospital? OK we see that's a need and nobody would choose to have a heart attack for eg, have it free at the point of delivery. Want to go to hospital cos your nose is a bit big/boobs are a bit small? Pay for it yourself.


KT67, you know that is an excellent analogy. Yes, the USA is not only the reverse of the USSR but the extreme reverse of it. And, you're right there does need to be a balance. There are some things that should stay in the marketplace and you should pay for yourself and some things that should be provided through the tax dollars.

And, to me by living in society you're agreeing to a certain social contract. I'm not going to get into that here but I've explained that before a while back.



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02 Dec 2020, 5:59 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Could it be possible that she tried to explain her situation in her past like yours truly did and she was given the same BS that she's making excuses, she should try to find work, you're owed nothing,etc? Is she mistaking general principles or is it that the conservative minded people she has met refuses to listen to what she has to say just like they refused to listen to what I had to say.

This is another reason I got out of the looney bin USA when I had the opportunity. I've had time to reflect since getting out and experiencing a different culture(s).

What I've noticed is that if something doesn't fit a person's narrative and belief system in the USA they will gaslight the f**k out of you. And, by saying "I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you" you need to know that this is gaslighting.

I've been gaslighted as well. Others will deny my experiences and will claim that I'm seeing things in absolutes or to black and white.

KT67, look up gaslighting and the defenses for it.


That's exactly it.

When I was applying for loads of jobs, it was the message of 'mask, don't be autistic, change your body language and your facial expression, no I won't say you have good people skills even though that's the only way to get a job, I'll be 'nice' and say average, I doubt you're looking for that many jobs' (I'm autistic - I treated it like an obsession. I looked for completely unsuitable jobs as well as suitable ones, whichever ones I saw which I was remotely qualified for, I went for)'.

It made me ill. The mix of being denied that I was trying, told I had to change myself completely - everything from looks to body language, made to put up with a volunteering job which was meant to be a paid job where people had completely racist attitudes and I had to bite my tongue and constant rejection.

Now I've moved to a town with better attitudes.

If I'm online and tell anyone that I'm on disability benefit, they make fun of me and tell me I'm a 'scrounger' or a 'jakey' or a 'chav' etc. They tell me to get a job. They tell me 'you could just go and collect trolleys'. They tell me they hate me.

Irl lately I've only heard it from one woman. She said 'you're lucky, I wish I could go home and make a cup of tea'. I don't know what her deal was, maybe she was a part time worker or a carer, cos she was at an art class at 10am on a Monday morning so I doubt she was working...

If Tories/other right wingers believe in a 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor (Victorian attitude btw) they should leave the extreme ESA benefit alone. They also shouldn't have to be told by a footballer to provide free school meals to those kids who need them - even if the parent are 'undeserving', what's a 5 yo meant to do about that?


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cubedemon6073
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02 Dec 2020, 7:58 pm

KT67 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

Could it be possible that she tried to explain her situation in her past like yours truly did and she was given the same BS that she's making excuses, she should try to find work, you're owed nothing,etc? Is she mistaking general principles or is it that the conservative minded people she has met refuses to listen to what she has to say just like they refused to listen to what I had to say.

This is another reason I got out of the looney bin USA when I had the opportunity. I've had time to reflect since getting out and experiencing a different culture(s).

What I've noticed is that if something doesn't fit a person's narrative and belief system in the USA they will gaslight the f**k out of you. And, by saying "I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you" you need to know that this is gaslighting.

I've been gaslighted as well. Others will deny my experiences and will claim that I'm seeing things in absolutes or to black and white.

KT67, look up gaslighting and the defenses for it.


That's exactly it.

When I was applying for loads of jobs, it was the message of 'mask, don't be autistic, change your body language and your facial expression, no I won't say you have good people skills even though that's the only way to get a job, I'll be 'nice' and say average, I doubt you're looking for that many jobs' (I'm autistic - I treated it like an obsession. I looked for completely unsuitable jobs as well as suitable ones, whichever ones I saw which I was remotely qualified for, I went for)'.

It made me ill. The mix of being denied that I was trying, told I had to change myself completely - everything from looks to body language, made to put up with a volunteering job which was meant to be a paid job where people had completely racist attitudes and I had to bite my tongue and constant rejection.

Now I've moved to a town with better attitudes.

If I'm online and tell anyone that I'm on disability benefit, they make fun of me and tell me I'm a 'scrounger' or a 'jakey' or a 'chav' etc. They tell me to get a job. They tell me 'you could just go and collect trolleys'. They tell me they hate me.

Irl lately I've only heard it from one woman. She said 'you're lucky, I wish I could go home and make a cup of tea'. I don't know what her deal was, maybe she was a part time worker or a carer, cos she was at an art class at 10am on a Monday morning so I doubt she was working...

If Tories/other right wingers believe in a 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor (Victorian attitude btw) they should leave the extreme ESA benefit alone. They also shouldn't have to be told by a footballer to provide free school meals to those kids who need them - even if the parent are 'undeserving', what's a 5 yo meant to do about that?


KT67, these conservatives need to be made to sit at the table and then made to defend and justify their ideas on an ideological level. They need to be made to answer certain questions as well. And, they need to be made to justify their beliefs on capitalism and how they can reconcile it with the holy Bible.



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02 Dec 2020, 11:40 pm

What if conservatives want to empower and not ridicule?

1. You're a victor , not a victim.

What if conservatives want you to believe in yourself?

2. Be the hero of your life.

What if conservatives want you to increase your potential?

3. Yes, you can! Yes, you can!

Do you see the conservative rallies the individual to achieve their potential?

Image


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03 Dec 2020, 12:31 am

Quote:
What if conservatives want to empower and not ridicule?

1. You're a victor , not a victim.


Okay, then show them how to fish. And, truthfully teach them!

Quote:
What if conservatives want you to believe in yourself?


What if I don't think it matters if I believe in myself or not? What if I think that reality is independent of my thoughts, wishes, hopes and dreams?

And, therein lies another issue I have with the USA and its ethos.

Point is, I can believe in myself all I want but if I'm in front of an the employer and sitting in front of his desk believing in myself doesn't matter if the employer(s) don't believe in me. It is they who decide who gets hired or not.

I was able to go to China. And, I had excellent skills. In the end, my employer in China chose to hire me and here I am today. If they chose not to hire me did my believing in myself have any impact in the outcome of whether I was hired or not. No! It is true that maybe believing in myself will more then likely cause me to choose to interview in the first place and get up and search for jobs at all. But, that's about it.

Believe in Yourself! Come on! I have a bridge in Dump water Fl for sale.

Quote:
2. Be the hero of your life.

What if conservatives want you to increase your potential?


Again, are they willing to show others how to actually fish?

Quote:
3. Yes, you can! Yes, you can!

Do you see the conservative rallies the individual to achieve their potential?


Again, if conservatives want people to be able to do so and believe in themselves as you call it then again are they willing to show them how to fish?



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03 Dec 2020, 5:38 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67, these conservatives need to be made to sit at the table and then made to defend and justify their ideas on an ideological level. They need to be made to answer certain questions as well. And, they need to be made to justify their beliefs on capitalism and how they can reconcile it with the holy Bible.


I think they should all be made to sit face to face with the people they're making decisions/opinions on.

The Christians ought to have to reconcile with the Bible. Esp Christians who believe in the Word Alone.

I think the American dream was about 2 things. 1 The hope that anyone can get rich and all that matters is the individual - I've known of (friends of friends) rich people who didn't work a day in their life because of handed down titles, I think that doesn't happen in America although in the age of the Kennedies, Clintons, Bushes etc maybe it does? In the era of King George, titles mattered a lot more than being a merchant did 2 The idea that people were homesteaders 3 The ableism/naivety of the 17th century in which anyone who tried to work the land could get success out of it if he worked hard enough (saying he because most of the wealth went to the man who owned the land, not his wife or kids or - later on - slaves)

It doesn't work in an economy where most people are employed. You either have to be persuasive enough to get an employer/set of employers to hire you or you need to be consistently persuasive enough to keep a business afloat.


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03 Dec 2020, 3:51 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Antrax wrote:
KT67 wrote:

What I hear is:
Your mental health condition doesn't exist or if it does exist then it isn't as bad as you and your doctors say it is. Go get a job. Refuse your benefit. Ignore the fact that nobody wants you and go apply for hundreds more jobs. Never mind the cost those rejections had on your mental health, we've already established that doesn't matter. Remember to mask, mask, mask.

What I hear from my dr is:
Yes, your mental health is severely bad enough to not work. Take things easy. Have a medical guardian. You must take medicine every day at 11am. Stop opening yourself up for rejection.

My dr is a trained professional who has been preceeded with other trained professionals.
You guys are a bunch of strangers online.
I know who I'm listening to.


I think you mistake general principles for specific messaging at you. I fully acknowledge some people are too disabled to work, and I fully acknowledge people with invisible disabilities face a tough road to getting those disabilities recognized. Listen to your doctor, and try to find a situation that works for you.

Truth is this isn't the case for most people in poverty. There are many many people living in poverty because of either not knowing the right decisions, or deliberately choosing the wrongs ones because they believe it doesn't matter or something.


Could it be possible that she tried to explain her situation in her past like yours truly did and she was given the same BS that she's making excuses, she should try to find work, you're owed nothing,etc? Is she mistaking general principles or is it that the conservative minded people she has met refuses to listen to what she has to say just like they refused to listen to what I had to say.


I bolded some parts because you greatly misinterpreted what I posted. Yes I know KT has encountered some ignorance in her quest to get her difficulties recognized in the real world, but no one here is telling her her problems aren't real.


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