Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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cubedemon6073
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25 Jul 2021, 2:06 am

Let's talk about PR in another sense if that is ok.

Let's say I make a choice on something. We're using I in a universal way.

Should a person own all of the consequences to every choice he makes? Should there be mitigating circumstances in which others should bare some of the consequences as well?

Example : College Student. The college student did make a number of choices like going in the first place, where to go, etc. But, what if he was influenced by others in his life to make certain decisions. And, not just influenced but pressured. You have a graduating HS senior who is just starting out. Can you really expect him to make the best and informed decisions he can make? Now, you have others who in his life influenced him, encouraged him and pressured him. And, this includes taking out loans.

Who should be responsible and accountable for these loans?

Should the student be 100% responsible and own all of the personal responsibility pie or should those others I discussed be just as responsible as well? Who should be the owner of the consequences?

My opinion: I think the college student should be the least culpable because he listened to people who would be considered to be reasonable to listen to and he listened to them in good faith.

With cause and effect why should the last person in this chain own all of the pie? Why can't the whole PR pie be shared?



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25 Jul 2021, 2:42 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
With cause and effect why should the last person in this chain own all of the pie? Why can't the whole PR pie be shared?

What do you mean by "should" here? In practice, humans seem to love having a scapegoat, so blaming one person is probably more natural for humans than sharing responsibility?



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25 Jul 2021, 4:51 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Let's talk about PR in another sense if that is ok.

Let's say I make a choice on something. We're using I in a universal way.

Should a person own all of the consequences to every choice he makes? Should there be mitigating circumstances in which others should bare some of the consequences as well?

Example : College Student. The college student did make a number of choices like going in the first place, where to go, etc. But, what if he was influenced by others in his life to make certain decisions. And, not just influenced but pressured. You have a graduating HS senior who is just starting out. Can you really expect him to make the best and informed decisions he can make? Now, you have others who in his life influenced him, encouraged him and pressured him. And, this includes taking out loans.

Who should be responsible and accountable for these loans?

Should the student be 100% responsible and own all of the personal responsibility pie or should those others I discussed be just as responsible as well? Who should be the owner of the consequences?

My opinion: I think the college student should be the least culpable because he listened to people who would be considered to be reasonable to listen to and he listened to them in good faith.

With cause and effect why should the last person in this chain own all of the pie? Why can't the whole PR pie be shared?

Student loans are predatory and a racket. I think most student loans should be forgiven and banks prevented from giving them except in extraordinary circumstances. Students get loans because people they trust to tell them the truth are acting in bad faith. A class action against public school districts and banks is not entirely unwarranted.

Besides that, however, there are some important things to consider: Who signed the paperwork to accept the loan and agree to pay it back? Knowing the risk and accepting money, there is no one else but the student who can or even should repay the loan. It’s unreasonable to expect anyone else to repay the loan if no one else signed it. You can’t force a debt onto people who didn’t want the debt in the first place. Student loans are kinda like using credit for casino gambling. You don’t know how successful you’ll actually be in the long term. It doesn’t make sense to go into debt after you’ve spent all your money or had no money in the first place only to be forced to pay it back without any sure and certain security that you can pay it back. It’s not an acceptable risk, and you’re better off NOT going to college if that’s the case. Better to alternate full time work between semesters, manage a part-time while you’re studying, and earn your degree outright rather than getting loans for something that’s high risk. But it remains that the guy accepting the debt in order to gamble on a high stakes game is the only guy who CAN be held responsible. It’s irresponsible to punish everyone for a mistake one individual made.

P.R. is more than that, though. If student loans are predatory but no one else can be held responsible, i.e. you can’t get the loans forgiven nor punish predators, then it is up to the individual whether he pays back the loans or not. I view loans as a kind of albatross. If I want to be rid of my student loans, nobody but me can dispose of them, and if my freedom is restricted until I can get rid of them, I don’t want to wait for them to be forgiven if forgiveness means I have to stay poor the whole time. I do not wish to stay poor. I’m going to do what it takes to deal with that debt. It is my personal responsibility to choose a career path that erases debt. It’s not a matter of whether it is moral—right or wrong, good or evil—to get rid of the debt. It is a matter of will. Do I want to eliminate the debt? If I want to repay the debt, it is my responsibility alone to work for it. If I do NOT want to work off the loan, then I have to accept the consequences—either enrolling in a program to pay based on income, or to accept having my credentials revoked, liens on my property if I have any, and wage garnishment orders should I ever try to become employed. PR in getting rid of debt means keeping the initiative and being more aggressive (in the career sense, not in the physically violent sense) about earning a high income—again, not because it’s moral, but because nobody else will do it for you.



cubedemon6073
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27 Jul 2021, 8:35 pm

Quote:
Student loans are predatory and a racket. I think most student loans should be forgiven and banks prevented from giving them except in extraordinary circumstances. Students get loans because people they trust to tell them the truth are acting in bad faith. A class action against public school districts and banks is not entirely unwarranted.



Totally 100% agree! I think they should be forgiven as well and part of giving a loan should be a plan written by the student how he or she will plan to pay it back. And, maybe do it in a sort of interview style as well conducted by a professional banker. If nothing else, it would give the student things to consider they didn't consider before.

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Besides that, however, there are some important things to consider: Who signed the paperwork to accept the loan and agree to pay it back?


It was the student who did sign the paperwork and agree to pay it back. We agree on these two set of facts. And, we agree that most loans should be forgiven. And, we agree that most loans shouldn't be given out. I added my own caveat.

Let's pretend that this is sort of a story with characters, setting, theme,etc. Here are the characters of this "story."

1. Student taking out the loan.

2. Bankers or lending companies

3. Educators and those education establishment

4. Parents and/or guardians

5. Relatives like aunts, uncles, etc

6. Possible adult friends of parents/guardians



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Knowing the risk and accepting money, there is no one else but the student who can or even should repay the loan.


This is where I start to disagree. You're assuming the student fully understood and knew the risk. This assumption is false. When the students, graduating seniors at age 18 or so who don't know how things do work in life, signed on the dotted line things were presented to them by the various characters (I mentioned previously) that skewed how things truthfully worked in the real world as most people would call it.

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It’s unreasonable to expect anyone else to repay the loan if no one else signed it. You can’t force a debt onto people who didn’t want the debt in the first place.


Imagine for the first 18 years of your life or so your life is regimented. You're told when to eat by his parents, be in bed by his parents, when one has to go to school by both his parents/guardians and the school, what classes one has to take (some choice is given) by both his parents/guardians and the school, what time one has to be in classes by both his parents/guardians and the school.

The students do have friends and within this regimentation the students can hang out with their friends. Now, there is an idea in which we're not socialized by adults with wisdom but by peers. Our peers, who are wet behind the ears like you are. Imagine this as well.

Now, imagine at a certain age this student's parents are pressuring them to go to college and get good grades. They're saying you need to go to college to have a good future. Imagine these parents are encouraging these students to take out loans and these parents claiming that their good job will pay for the loan. And, some parents pressure their children to go into degrees they're not even interested in.

Now, imagine the schools doing the same thing especially with the SATs and various teachers and the admins stating that if one doesn't do well on the SATs. If one doesn't do well on the SATs then one won't have a good future. All of these authority figures are in their lives and are considered respectful. So, would it be reasonable to assume that all of them would know what they were talking about before the student signed on the line.

Now you have students, who were given a skewed narrative about how things do work in the real world meaning that all one has to do is go to college and one will be able to "graduate" to a job just like that. And, the transition is as easy as going from grade level to grade level. For the first years of their lives from Kindergarten on this was their life and their universe. All of this was presented to them in a regimented environment.

Let's add another caveat. Brain development in a human being is not complete until the age of 25. Decisions made by those between the age of 18 to 25 will be a bit more impulsive then older adults but less impulsive then the younger teens and children.

Could students with an incomplete brain who was presented a certain narrative by various people in their lives under regimented conditions be reasonably be expected to understand the risks involved of signing on the dotted line and agreeing to the terms of this loan? Were they even taught how to do risk assessment and were they even given the idea that one can even do an assessment on risk? If the answer is no to these questions then I'm sorry but these characters in our "story" have culpability and because they were older and supposedly wiser they should have more culpability.

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Student loans are kinda like using credit for casino gambling.


Of course!

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You don’t know how successful you’ll actually be in the long term.


True! But, the students wouldn't know this based upon the presentation given to them by various people they thought they could respect and trust.

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It doesn’t make sense to go into debt after you’ve spent all your money or had no money in the first place only to be forced to pay it back without any sure and certain security that you can pay it back.


See above!

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It’s not an acceptable risk, and you’re better off NOT going to college if that’s the case.


See above!

Quote:
Better to alternate full time work between semesters, manage a part-time while you’re studying, and earn your degree outright rather than getting loans for something that’s high risk. But it remains that the guy accepting the debt in order to gamble on a high stakes game is the only guy who CAN be held responsible. It’s irresponsible to punish everyone for a mistake one individual made.


How would this work if you have other costs that can't be shaken so easily? And, let's not forget medical because in the USA if you have a major issue you're pretty much screwed.

Quote:
P.R. is more than that, though. If student loans are predatory but no one else can be held responsible, i.e. you can’t get the loans forgiven nor punish predators, then it is up to the individual whether he pays back the loans or not. I view loans as a kind of albatross. If I want to be rid of my student loans, nobody but me can dispose of them, and if my freedom is restricted until I can get rid of them, I don’t want to wait for them to be forgiven if forgiveness means I have to stay poor the whole time. I do not wish to stay poor. I’m going to do what it takes to deal with that debt. It is my personal responsibility to choose a career path that erases debt. It’s not a matter of whether it is moral—right or wrong, good or evil—to get rid of the debt. It is a matter of will. Do I want to eliminate the debt? If I want to repay the debt, it is my responsibility alone to work for it. If I do NOT want to work off the loan, then I have to accept the consequences—either enrolling in a program to pay based on income, or to accept having my credentials revoked, liens on my property if I have any, and wage garnishment orders should I ever try to become employed. PR in getting rid of debt means keeping the initiative and being more aggressive (in the career sense, not in the physically violent sense) about earning a high income—again, not because it’s moral, but because nobody else will do it for you.


Pragmatism! If I had any student loans then I would have to be practical and pragmatic. This is true. Thank goodness for our state lottery and the hope scholarship at the time. And, guess what while I was doing the same thing you were doing I would still b***h and complain about it.

The only issue I have with pragmatism is this. If we have the majority who are pragmatic and just simply accept this is the way it is and we got to work with it then how does anything get changed. Do we really want this monstrosity and injustice put onto the next generation and the generations after that? I most certainly don't. I don't want my child to go into debt because of all that I told. If and when I father a child I want them to have a good future and not be sold a false bill of goods.



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27 Jul 2021, 9:00 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Do we really want this monstrosity and injustice put onto the next generation and the generations after that? I most certainly don't. I don't want my child to go into debt because of all that I told. If and when I father a child I want them to have a good future and not be sold a false bill of goods.

How would you like to change it? Those on the top very much do want it that way, since scamming others is how humans roll. I'm guessing those on the bottom won't do anything, since they will by too busy slaving away to repay their debts. So it will either stay that way or get even worse?

Although if you do have a solution, I'm happy to listen and maybe even help if I can :3



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27 Jul 2021, 9:23 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Let's talk about PR in another sense if that is ok.

Let's say I make a choice on something. We're using I in a universal way.

Should a person own all of the consequences to every choice he makes? Should there be mitigating circumstances in which others should bare some of the consequences as well?

Example : College Student. The college student did make a number of choices like going in the first place, where to go, etc. But, what if he was influenced by others in his life to make certain decisions. And, not just influenced but pressured. You have a graduating HS senior who is just starting out. Can you really expect him to make the best and informed decisions he can make? Now, you have others who in his life influenced him, encouraged him and pressured him. And, this includes taking out loans.

Who should be responsible and accountable for these loans?

Should the student be 100% responsible and own all of the personal responsibility pie or should those others I discussed be just as responsible as well? Who should be the owner of the consequences?

My opinion: I think the college student should be the least culpable because he listened to people who would be considered to be reasonable to listen to and he listened to them in good faith.

With cause and effect why should the last person in this chain own all of the pie? Why can't the whole PR pie be shared?


Why should someone be able to make terrible financial decisions and then not have to deal with the repercussions? Why should their mistakes be paid for by others? That's why we have laws about this stuff, contracts and such - basically if someone is of sound mind and they sign the deal, they're responsible for their decision. Otherwise people would take stupid risks and just shrug it off and expect someone else to pay for their mistakes. That's ridiculous.

And I say this as someone who was bankrupt about a decade ago. Sure, there IS a reset button and others (banks/creditors) lose, BUT, in this system my personal credit rating takes a massive hit as well, including 7 years of having a bankruptcy on my credit record and not being able to apply for student loans for 10 years.


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27 Jul 2021, 9:25 pm

in amuuurica at least, the nation is chock-full of sociopaths just waiting to separate money from the gullible. that is how student loans and higher education work here, a stinking racket.



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27 Jul 2021, 9:56 pm

I’m not really a pragmatist, though, but whatever…

I don’t think college should be funded by loans at all, ever.

Why?

Because you’re giving TEENAGERS with little or no job experience or history of responsibility tens of thousands of dollars of UNSECURED DEBT which they can, at will, spend on sex, alcohol/tobacco/weed/chemicals, social clubs (fraternities/sororities), and all sorts of distractions from their education. Moreover, they can study whatever they want. They can get degrees in philosophy, sociology, psychology, music, etc., i.e. things that don’t directly lead to employability. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy all of those things, but those are not degrees that have high value and earning potential. Music is fame or famine. You want an expert busboy for your restaurant? Hire a music major. We make excellent bartenders. Typical freshman Bachelor of Arts music performance curriculum: music theory, ear training, applied instrument, Western Civ, Intro to Foodservice. So what logical sense does it make to give a child all that money to become a didgeridoo expert when all he’ll ever be good for is sacking groceries? Why not take a course of study in grocery or retail management, or some equivalent, if that’s really all you can ever hope to do? Oh, but I’m a talented musician! I’m going to beat the odds! I’m gonna be the one who makes it! SMDH.

We don’t like to think anyone is stupid, but there are stupid adults. There are even more stupid teenagers who think just because they turned 18 and got a diploma that they own the place. They think they have all the answers and they’re the ones who are going to change the world. Maybe EVENTUALLY they will, but not at 18. Yet THESE are the fools that banks are giving loans to, like it’s some free ice cream and balloons day. And we’re talking about an UNSECURED LOAN, no collateral, no actual plan on how you’re going to collect the money in the event the debtor decides not to pay. In what universe does any bank hand out loans when the debtor has no collateral, no job, no work experience, and is planning something high-risk while still a teenager? I think banks are pretty stupid for participating in that racket, and we’re due for a financial crisis when the education bubble bursts. Banks can’t collect on student loans, fed government loses its ability to guarantee loans against default, banks stop participating in loan programs, student enrollment falls, professors lose their funding, universities close while profs have to do something radical and actually WORK for a living.



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27 Jul 2021, 9:58 pm

if colleges were smart they'd sign contracts with students that would garnish their future wages for a certain amount of time, in effect making them indentured servants, i know this will come back.



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28 Jul 2021, 1:01 am

StrayCat81 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Do we really want this monstrosity and injustice put onto the next generation and the generations after that? I most certainly don't. I don't want my child to go into debt because of all that I told. If and when I father a child I want them to have a good future and not be sold a false bill of goods.

How would you like to change it? Those on the top very much do want it that way, since scamming others is how humans roll. I'm guessing those on the bottom won't do anything, since they will by too busy slaving away to repay their debts. So it will either stay that way or get even worse?

Although if you do have a solution, I'm happy to listen and maybe even help if I can :3


I have a solution for my future children but not for others.

1. Teach critical thinking at an early age for my children. Teach them to be skeptics and to question authority. Be very skeptical about any advice you are given by your teachers, your relatives and even by myself. Make sure you do your homework. I would make sure they had access to be able to do this.

2. Have my future children do neuropsych tests and aptitude tests to see where there abilities and disabilities lie. So, they need help we can catch it early. Not only do we do physical check ups but do mental health check ups as well.

3. Any career they go into we research it thoroughly. None of this follow your heart BS. Your head should always get a veto. We know what it takes to succeed in the career.

4. We find ways in which one may not even have to go to college. In IT, one can get certifications in lieu of the degree. In IT and other fields experience counts more then the degree. If one must go to college or even trade school then I would find out which fields are in high need of people and go to a cheaper college. I believe Dave Ramsey mentions this on one of his shows.

5. If possible, which is what my wife and I are doing now while working in china we do a business.

6. One makes more money on property then jobs. If possible, I would invest in property.

7. Have my children watch Dave Ramsey youtube videos. I've watched some of his videos. And, the man gives sound advice.

These would be some of these things I would do to try to have my children avoid some of the issues that came up with the millennials.

If you have any further questions I will try to answer as best as possible.



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28 Jul 2021, 1:20 am

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I’m not really a pragmatist, though, but whatever…


https://www.google.com/search?q=pragmat ... e&ie=UTF-8

When it comes to paying your loans back you're a person who is guided more by practical considerations than by ideals.

By definition you were being pragmatic when it came to your loans.

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I don’t think college should be funded by loans at all, ever.


You may be right.

Why?

Quote:
Because you’re giving TEENAGERS with little or no job experience or history of responsibility tens of thousands of dollars of UNSECURED DEBT which they can, at will, spend on sex, alcohol/tobacco/weed/chemicals, social clubs (fraternities/sororities), and all sorts of distractions from their education.


Yet, we as a society want to consider these TEENAGERS as adults. Go figure!

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Moreover, they can study whatever they want. They can get degrees in philosophy, sociology, psychology, music, etc., i.e. things that don’t directly lead to employability. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy all of those things, but those are not degrees that have high value and earning potential.


And, that is an issue. But, here is the problem. Who were the ones who said you can do anything you set your mind to. And, who said to follow your passions and follow your dreams. A number of them did this. They should not have been given such crapola advice especially when their lives are regimented unless you're one of those bad teens who skip school and simply disregard and disrespect one's parents.

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Music is fame or famine. You want an expert busboy for your restaurant? Hire a music major. We make excellent bartenders. Typical freshman Bachelor of Arts music performance curriculum: music theory, ear training, applied instrument, Western Civ, Intro to Foodservice.

So what logical sense does it make to give a child all that money to become a didgeridoo expert when all he’ll ever be good for is sacking groceries? Why not take a course of study in grocery or retail management, or some equivalent, if that’s really all you can ever hope to do? Oh, but I’m a talented musician! I’m going to beat the odds! I’m gonna be the one who makes it! SMDH.


See Above!

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We don’t like to think anyone is stupid, but there are stupid adults. There are even more stupid teenagers who think just because they turned 18 and got a diploma that they own the place. They think they have all the answers and they’re the ones who are going to change the world. Maybe EVENTUALLY they will, but not at 18. Yet THESE are the fools that banks are giving loans to, like it’s some free ice cream and balloons day. And we’re talking about an UNSECURED LOAN, no collateral, no actual plan on how you’re going to collect the money in the event the debtor decides not to pay. In what universe does any bank hand out loans when the debtor has no collateral, no job, no work experience, and is planning something high-risk while still a teenager? I think banks are pretty stupid for participating in that racket, and we’re due for a financial crisis when the education bubble bursts. Banks can’t collect on student loans, fed government loses its ability to guarantee loans against default, banks stop participating in loan programs, student enrollment falls, professors lose their funding, universities close while profs have to do something radical and actually WORK for a living.


Totally Agree! Let's add to the list of stupid. The educators and parents who told these teens while being in regimented environments that they can be anything they wish to be, do anything they set their mind to, think positive, and other kinds of horses**t.

You know what! I think I'm leaning towards your way of not giving these sorts of loans to teens at all until we as a society get our heads out of our asses.



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28 Jul 2021, 1:28 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Why should someone be able to make terrible financial decisions and then not have to deal with the repercussions?

Why should their mistakes be paid for by others? That's why we have laws about this stuff, contracts and such - basically if someone is of sound mind and they sign the deal, they're responsible for their decision. Otherwise people would take stupid risks and just shrug it off and expect someone else to pay for their mistakes. That's ridiculous.

And I say this as someone who was bankrupt about a decade ago. Sure, there IS a reset button and others (banks/creditors) lose, BUT, in this system my personal credit rating takes a massive hit as well, including 7 years of having a bankruptcy on my credit record and not being able to apply for student loans for 10 years.


Simple Answer: Those who made the terrible financial decisions did not know they were terrible financial decisions when they signed on the dotted lines. And, they were encouraged by others around them to do this including but not limited to their parents and the education establishment. So, why should their mistakes be paid for by others. Because those others gave them BS information and painted a BS narrative that the students could reasonable accept with good faith.



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28 Jul 2021, 1:51 am

in amuuurica, "the poor can never be punished enough." [jimmy breslin]



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28 Jul 2021, 1:58 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I have a solution for my future children but not for others.[...]

I'm no expert, but these certainly sound like good survival strategies for awful world we have. Although if I was your child, I would ask you this "Dad, you knew how terrible the world is, and you still decided to bring me to it. Why have you done this to me?"



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28 Jul 2021, 2:42 am

StrayCat81 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
I have a solution for my future children but not for others.[...]

I'm no expert, but these certainly sound like good survival strategies for awful world we have. Although if I was your child, I would ask you this "Dad, you knew how terrible the world is, and you still decided to bring me to it. Why have you done this to me?"


My answer: Let me ask you these questions. Why does any organism reproduce knowing the world is terrible? Why do fish swim? Why do dogs bark and cats meow? The answer is that it is part of their overall given nature. Just like it is overall any organism's nature to reproduce it is therefore a human being's inordinate desire to reproduce and that desire is a part of a human's nature. I am a human so it is my nature to reproduce with the one I love which is your mother. This is one answer.

And, if I can show the world through demonstration different possible paths are possible then the one path presented by the modern system and if my children can truthfully live and be themselves and can show others through their demonstration then I have lived my purpose. This is my other answer.

But the answers are irrelevant. We are here. What I want you to ask yourself, others and even myself is how shall we then live? How can we live to be the best people we can be?



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28 Jul 2021, 2:53 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
We are here. What I want you to ask yourself, others and even myself is how shall we then live? How can we live to be the best people we can be?

Good question. As a child, the answer would be most likely to take all your wealth and then kill you so you are not getting in the way? But how to get away with it?