Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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kraftiekortie
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08 Jun 2021, 7:56 am

I analyze things enough---trust me.

And, sometimes, I overanalyze.

Nope....nothing wrong with analysis----unless it gives you paralysis.


What I mean by "personal responsibility" is not just keeping a job or being financially independent. I don't expect all people to become financially independent. I expect disabled people to have to rely on government or their family in at least some manner. I don't shame people for being on public assistance.

It's broader than that. It's keeping yourself from being an as*hole to other people. You are responsible for your own conduct. Just don't be a jerk to the people who are taking care of you.



cubedemon6073
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08 Jun 2021, 8:03 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I analyze things enough---trust me.

And, sometimes, I overanalyze.

Nope....nothing wrong with analysis----unless it gives you paralysis.


What I mean by "personal responsibility" is not just keeping a job or being financially independent. I don't expect all people to become financially independent. I expect disabled people to have to rely on government or their family. It's broader than that. It's keeping yourself from being an as*hole to other people. You are responsible for your own conduct. Just don't be a jerk to the people who are taking care of you.


I agree on this.



aghogday
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08 Jun 2021, 8:24 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
We're not going to get anywhere with this whole God thing.

What it comes down to is how much control of our lives do we have really? Honestly, I don't think the amount of control of our lives is as much as conservative/personal responsibility types purports it to be. I don't accept American philosophy on this.

As for independence, I don't think everyone can be independent. I think it is a huge mistake to try to force everyone to be independent. It does not work and how many of those end up homeless. How many of those with disabilities are able to get and keep a job that will pay for their cost of living including medical care? What is the ratio of those who are employed vs unemployed vs those not in the labor force?

I believe that there are certain things that one is owed. One thing I believe I'm owed is truth in advertising. If one goes to college or trade school what will be my return on investment? For the money students are to shell out including student loan debt what is their return on their investment? For all the money they're expected to shell out and all of the work they're expected to do in school what is their return on investment?

Now let's ask the same above questions with those with disabilities especially those with autism and ASDs. For an autistic person what is the return on investment for going to college and/or trade school at all? Are autistics more likely to be employed and afford the cost of living including medical if they go? How more likely? How much does the probability go up for success in the real world for the autistic person if he or she goes to college/trade school?

And, for every Temple Grandin how many disabled folks especially autistics are on SSDI and either unemployed or not in the labor force?






In Short, It Always Depends on the Individual As to How Much Personal Responsibility they are Able to take For Their Life.

And In Long, Yes, Society Does Very Much Influence How Folks Come to View Other Folks, Either In Positive
Ways or Negative Ways; And Yes, In How Much Responsibility Folks Take to Do Their Best to Walk in the
Shoes of Others, Who Experience Life Much Differently Than They Do.

For It is True We Will Find the Homeless Very Robust Looking

Dude On the Side of the Street; Perhaps, He Worked in

Construction Many Years of His Life And Expressed
Greater Human Epigenetic Potential in Physical
Form of Human Potential in Physical Strength;

On the Other Hand, Some of Us Have Difficulty
Seeing Past This Form As Far As Human Experience
Goes; What 'Demons' Is He dealing With; Will We Take
The Time And Effort to Attempt to Emphasize With His
Issues; Are We Able to Relate At All; Or Do We Just Follow
Whatever Narrative Others Have Provided to Us About Homeless

People on the Side of the Street; Like They Are Only Manipulating
Others For the Case of Being Lazy Good For Nothing Bums; One of
my Favorite Clips From 'the Big Lebowski Movie' Illustrates This well;

It's A Parody on America And Our 'Protestant Work Ethic' Overall; Hehe

Avoiding 'Trademark God', If We Can And Will Here too; Just A Metaphor That Really

Has More Still to Do With Politics in Religion than Anything to Do With A 'Higher Being'...

Anyway, 'The Dude' Is Easy Going; He Has Enough Emotional Intelligence And Self Esteem to Get by....

The Big Lebowski Dude Reminds me a bit of Jordan Peterson or Dr. Phil; Believing They Have All the Answers

Like Jordan Peterson Who Says Just because He Cannot Properly Measure Emotional Intelligence or Self-Esteem

With Psychometric Scientific Tools; Both Emotional Intelligence and Self-Esteem Are a Crock too, In His Mind

All That Exists is Neuroticism And Agreeableness As the 'Big Five Personality Test' Bears Out Personality
Traits With Statistical Analysis As such; Hehe, All i had to Do is Watch Jordan Peterson's Behavior Speaking

For About 5 Minutes to See that He Has 'Little Man Syndrome' And Also to See That Appeals to the Same

Deficit in Other Young Men, Who Have Yet to Gain Their So-Called Self-Esteem of Manhood And Grace
of Emotional Intelligence That Keeps Folks Calm And Collected in Pressures of Life That Come and Go;

It Was Obvious to Me that Jordan Was Way Over His 'Head', As far As The Emotional Intelligence
And Self-Esteem Required to Do What He Was Doing in Life and Headed for a 'Train Wreck'

And It Did Not Take Long;

So How Did i know,

Been There
Did it too;

Live And Learn;

Fortunately, i Found Ways
That Worked For me; Not All Do;

Personal Responsibility, Like Free Will
Is A Relative Term; And Emotional Intelligence
And Self-Esteem Is An Art Tailored To Each Human
Being's Experience of Life; Some Folks See Life in Rather

Material Reductionist Ways; Of Course i Knew You Did Not Literally

Mean Personal Responsibility, Overall, Was A Crock; Just the Old Meme

of Pull Your BootStraps Up For Folks With Disabilities; Yet Still No Matter

How Many Scientific Studies We Do; There Are Always Gonna Be The Outliers

Who Do Better Than Studies Indicate They might Otherwise Do; and Those Who

Do Worse too; Human Nature Is Not Bound By Science; Human Nature is an Open

Source Art Project in Process Where Science is A Tool; Yet Not A Prison to Be Held in Either...

True, i Overcame the Difficulties of Autism And Bi-Polar Disorder Enough to Have A Spectacular Awesome,
Financially Independent Life; How Much of that Is Dependent on People Who Actually Loved And Cared And

Took Total Care of me When i Fell to the Very Bottom of the Dungeon; 100 Percent, As True i have Definitely

Been to A Place in Existence Where i Lost Total Control of my Responsibility over the Direction i was headed

in Life; Now in Relative Terms, i Have More Control Over my Happiness Than Probably 99 Percent of the Population

Does As True it is Mostly An Inside Within Game of Life; Most People Are Trying To Figure Out What Other Folks

Want from Them in Life to Conform; Yet There Are Others; Those With Self-Esteem Enough And Emotional

Intelligence Enough, Who May have Meager Means, Yet Even Live Under A Bridge With More Emotional

Intelligence And Self-Esteem

Than the Business

Man Rich

In Dollar

Bills Will Ever

Have Lost On So-Called

Wall Street; The Homeless

Person, May just Have Faith in the

Kindness of Others; No Different than

The Metaphor of Jesus and His Friends

As Just Human Beings, None of The Myths;

Just Human Beings Going With Empty pockets

Relying on the Kindness of Others And Spreading

A Little Bit of Wisdom of What it Means to Be Meek And
Truly Inherit the Earth; The Nature of Human Kindness For

Humans Who Are Still Human; and Not Just Objects to Manipulate For Control...

Now, Don't Get Me Wrong; Not Everyone Has 'The Nuts' of What it Takes to be
A Homeless Person and Survive; Yet Some Do; And Some Have More Emotional

Intelligence And Self-Esteem Than The Dude on Wall Street Will Ever Have;

You Don't Have to Have A Suit And Brief Case to Truly Thrive;

Some Days

Ya Just

Relax

Kick Back And Smile

And Perhaps Put Your Shades

Back on To Avoid Seeing The Human Bird Cr8p...

Yet Again, No Human Is an Island, Helps to Have Folks Who Care About you too...

Some Folks Don't; Yet Somehow They Still Find A Way to Live, Survive, And Thrive Even Homeless too...

i am more Impressed
by them

Than

A Harvard

Graduate Born

With A Golden Spoon....

Anyway, Personal Responsibility
Is Not Unlike Free Will, Emotional
Intelligence, And Self-Esteem And

Just About Everything In Life: A Work of Art That is Relative...

One of the Greatest Deficits of Life Is a Lack of Cognitive and Affective
Empathy And A Lack of Compassion For other Folks Deeply Feeling Their Struggles in Life...

And Really It's Just part of NDD Nature Deficit Disorder; In This Case HNDD Human Nature Deficit Disorder...

It's Surely

Not Limited

to the Autism

Spectrum, Yet

According to Empirical

Studies; It is most Definitely Correlated....

And That Broader Autism Phenotype May
Extend Out to 15 Percent (OR MORE NOW) of the Population As

Far As Difficulties With Social Empathic Artistic Spiritual Intelligence Drowns...

Far Out On The Ocean Away From Human 'Kind'... Far Away From A Cooperative Spirit Truly Thriving 'Together'...

Again The Alpha
Chimp Has

Empathy

For the Whole Chimp Clan;

Yet It's True Those Alphas

Males Without Empathy

Are Often Discarded

As Not Worthy of 'The Job'....

Hehe, Fortunately Money Is Not
An Issue for me; So i Get to Work Freelance

Sort of Like 'The Dude' off the Movie In Real Life True...;)




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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


AngelRho
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08 Jun 2021, 5:36 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Somehow I don’t think Peter Diamandis or Anousheh Ansari would agree that personal responsibility is a crock. People like that don’t take no for an answer and refuse to accept that a government agency is the only way to achieve their goals.


Huh! I have no idea what you just said.

Of course you don’t. You don’t seem to like anything that refutes your narrative. Ever since NASA was founded, there has never been any way for “regular people” to participate in space travel. Diamandis and Ansari broke through government barriers by becoming outspoken advocates for independent rocket development. Ansari became the first Iranian woman in space. They paved the way for people like Musk and Bezos and proved that it was possible for people to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for achievement even in the area of independent space travel.

Or how about this one: Randall Wallace? Award-winning filmmaker. Worked his butt off on piddling little projects and was basically getting nowhere until Mel Gibson saw his script for Braveheart. Came out of nowhere and next thing he knows he’s a huge hit. He’s gone on to do a handful of feature films and has gotten more than his fair share of hate. He’s known for standing firm on values and principles and not compromising who he is over pressures of the Hollywood lifestyle. I bet he could share some things about personal responsibility.



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08 Jun 2021, 7:58 pm

How about Chip Wilson? He started out as an athlete born to a family of athletes. He knew early on that good grades would never be his thing, and he knew his days as an athlete were numbered. He worked different jobs, including an oil pipeline gig where union workers used union rules as an excuse to be lazy. After listening to women complaining about how hard it was to get yoga pants that fit right, he took up sewing and later started Lululemon. Hmmm...I wonder what he would say about personal responsibility?

Actually...Chip Wilson has faced tons of hate over the years. He’s far from perfect and has made comments he’s not proud of. So in apologizing for something he said, he began by saying, “I'm responsible for what comes out of my mouth.” Personal responsibility means owning your mistakes as well as your successes. Achievers are under no obligation to apologize for things, but they often will. What’s interesting is that haters double down on the hate when this happens. They are either gleeful that someone shows humility when the unexpected happens, or they sneer at them for being disingenuous. It seems that responsibility is only a thing when it’s someone else.



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08 Jun 2021, 8:09 pm

Personal responsibility...hey, why not ask Lenore Skenazy about that? You know, the World’s Worst Mom? Ever since she got hated on for letting her son ride the subway, she’s gone on to give lectures, write books, and even had her own TV show where she taught uptight parents the value of letting children be independent (within reason) and do things on their own. One mother on her show was still spoon-feeding her 10 year old, and the mom of a 13 year old was still taking her son to the ladies’ room. Actually, my wife and I are free range parents and didn’t even know it. Is personal responsibility really such a crock?



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08 Jun 2021, 8:34 pm

I decided to quote both of your posts into one.

AngelRho wrote:
Of course you don’t. You don’t seem to like anything that refutes your narrative. Ever since NASA was founded, there has never been any way for “regular people” to participate in space travel. Diamandis and Ansari broke through government barriers by becoming outspoken advocates for independent rocket development. Ansari became the first Iranian woman in space. They paved the way for people like Musk and Bezos and proved that it was possible for people to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for achievement even in the area of independent space travel.

Or how about this one: Randall Wallace? Award-winning filmmaker. Worked his butt off on piddling little projects and was basically getting nowhere until Mel Gibson saw his script for Braveheart. Came out of nowhere and next thing he knows he’s a huge hit. He’s gone on to do a handful of feature films and has gotten more than his fair share of hate. He’s known for standing firm on values and principles and not compromising who he is over pressures of the Hollywood lifestyle. I bet he could share some things about personal responsibility.



AngelRho wrote:
How about Chip Wilson? He started out as an athlete born to a family of athletes. He knew early on that good grades would never be his thing, and he knew his days as an athlete were numbered. He worked different jobs, including an oil pipeline gig where union workers used union rules as an excuse to be lazy. After listening to women complaining about how hard it was to get yoga pants that fit right, he took up sewing and later started Lululemon. Hmmm...I wonder what he would say about personal responsibility?

Actually...Chip Wilson has faced tons of hate over the years. He’s far from perfect and has made comments he’s not proud of. So in apologizing for something he said, he began by saying, “I'm responsible for what comes out of my mouth.” Personal responsibility means owning your mistakes as well as your successes. Achievers are under no obligation to apologize for things, but they often will. What’s interesting is that haters double down on the hate when this happens. They are either gleeful that someone shows humility when the unexpected happens, or they sneer at them for being disingenuous. It seems that responsibility is only a thing when it’s someone else.



1. I am glad all of these people succeeded. I'm proud of what they accomplished.

2. These people though are anecdotal examples. Anecdotal examples don't prove your point.

3. What is the background that surrounds these people? Did their working hard and their choices they made solely contribute to success? Or, are there circumstances that surround them they had no control over that helped to contribute to their success. Let's look at Anousheh Ansari. She came from Iran and came to the USA in 1984 as a teen. Take look at this article as well. Note this quote where it says "Ansari's left Iran at the age of 16 just a few years after the Islamic Revolution, in part because her family wanted her to pursue her passion for the sciences to the fullest extent possible."

Who were her parents. Her parents more then likely were born and raised in Iran as well. It seems like her parents were more moderate in their views concerning Islam and the Koran. What if she was raised in a more traditional way? Would she have even left Iran to pursue this? Maybe! But, more then likely I say no. More then likely she would be a traditional Muslim wife and when she went out she would have to cover up with a veil. This right here gave her a leg up. And, the parents had the money and finances to move as well. And, I believe that part of the immigration procedure to come to the USA is that you have to have a sponsor. They were able to get a sponsor. Others, not easily so.

4. This is the problem with the whole narrative of you can be anything you set your mind to and the whole pull yourself by your bootstraps idea. It always portrays the successes but it never portrays those who sunk and who had all kinds of difficulties like the member ASS-P on here. It presumes that we have all of this control over our lives when the control is not as much as we would like to believe. The whole narrative does not accept extenuating circumstances beyond your control that may hinder your ability to make a living in the USA or anywhere else for that matter.

5. For me, I'm more successful in China not only due to certain things I did, certain abilities I have and working hard to get my IT degree and working hard to get here but I had circumstances beyond my control that enabled me to not only get my degree but to work in China. One example is that I had funding from my family to do this endeavor. I had help to fill out the complicated forms and if my family couldn't they hired others to do so. Let's not forget having to go through the Visa process as well. This is what personal responsibility advocates refuse to look at. I have certain things going for me that others on here like ASS-P didn't have. Privilege. I have certain Privileges that those like ASS-P did not have.



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08 Jun 2021, 9:02 pm

Hmmm, speaking of haters...hey, have you ever heard of Nadine Strossen? She was the first woman president of the ACLU and served from 1991 to 2008. She recently wrote a book entitled “Hate: Why We Should Resist It with Free Speech, Not Censorship.” She is a feminist who is outspoken in her views on free expression. When she was asked in an interview how she felt about conservatives being silenced on social media, she said that it is not the proper role of government to limit free expression. However, even though we all HAVE freedom of expression, none of us have any obligation to give a microphone to ideas we disagree with. Individuals can do what they like on THEIR platforms, even if it means banning conservatives. She said that the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world are MUCH more dangerous than the Donald Trumps because government officials can be recalled, lose re-election campaigns, be impeached, and so forth. But the government has no such power over social media and other means of self-expression.

I wonder what Nadine Strossen would have to say about personal responsibility?



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08 Jun 2021, 9:29 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I
2. These people though are anecdotal examples. Anecdotal examples don't prove your point.

Anecdotal? No, I’m afraid these are entirely factual and verifiable. I just posted about Strossen and her book “Hate:” Later in the same interview she mentioned that her book probably wouldn’t be published if she’d written it this year because of cancel culture. As much as I despise the ACLU, Strossen is a fascinating person and an excellent leader by example.

What about another example of personal responsibility? Let’s talk about Nina Teicholz. Who is she? Teicholz is a journalist who researched government dietary guidelines. She found that dietary guidelines were influenced by food industry lobbyists representing the interests of companies that specialized in foods low in saturated fat. In 2014, she wrote a book calling these guys out, entitled “The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet.” Her courage caught the attention of John Arnold who bankrolled further research. In 2015, she took the US Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee to task and was able to meet with members of Congress and even White House staffers.

Would Teicholz agree that personal responsibility is a crock?



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08 Jun 2021, 9:44 pm

To quote BLS:

Quote:
Hellfire, doom
Watch the hatred spin
Beyond the speed of sound

On the topic of hatred, have you ever considered Dr. Jason Hill? He’s a black, gay philosopher from Jamaica, one of the most homophobic countries on the planet who moved to the United States. You know what he said? He said that it is the American left promoting the idea of victimization of immigrants and POC, describing it as “moral hysteria and hyperbole on the part of a far left that wants to paint racial minorities as helplessly under the yoke of white oppression.”

Gee...I wonder what he thinks about personal responsibility?



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08 Jun 2021, 10:06 pm

Here is another thing. I go in for an interview. I sit down in front of the interviewer's desk. It's that interviewer and others who are the decision makes decide if I will be hired or not. If they don't think I'm a good fit and/or they think I'm slow will I be hired? More then likely, I say no. But what if a number of the hiring and interview requirements for each organizations are similar to each other? Will I be a good fit if I have certain characteristics or don't have certain characteristics? What is the probability that I will be hired especially in the USA with certain characteristics or lack thereof?

Does it matter whether I believe in myself or not if others are involved and influence the circumstances one is in? To a certain extent maybe but to the extent the USA takes it I say no.



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08 Jun 2021, 10:14 pm

AngelRho wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
I
2. These people though are anecdotal examples. Anecdotal examples don't prove your point.

Anecdotal? No, I’m afraid these are entirely factual and verifiable. I just posted about Strossen and her book “Hate:” Later in the same interview she mentioned that her book probably wouldn’t be published if she’d written it this year because of cancel culture. As much as I despise the ACLU, Strossen is a fascinating person and an excellent leader by example.

What about another example of personal responsibility? Let’s talk about Nina Teicholz. Who is she? Teicholz is a journalist who researched government dietary guidelines. She found that dietary guidelines were influenced by food industry lobbyists representing the interests of companies that specialized in foods low in saturated fat. In 2014, she wrote a book calling these guys out, entitled “The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet.” Her courage caught the attention of John Arnold who bankrolled further research. In 2015, she took the US Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee to task and was able to meet with members of Congress and even White House staffers.

Would Teicholz agree that personal responsibility is a crock?


I looked up the definition. Maybe anecdotal isn't the right word I'm looking for.

Okay, let's try this. Someone claims to see 10 white swans. And, they capture them. So, we can verify them. Does that mean that all swans, most or the majority of swans are white? Does a few select cases that are verified and proven prove it for all, most or the majority of the cases? What if ten people found and captured 10 black swans each?

This is what I am conveying.

You are naming all of these names and yes they've been successful.

Does a small sample prove the majority or all?

Let's look at it this way as well. And, just because the majority of the larger sample space is true does it mean that a subset of it will be true as well?

Let's say we have a small sample space of people who are disabled out of the larger population who are non-disabled.

What is the ratio of those with disabilities who are employed vs those not in the labor force and what is the ratio of those who don't have disabilities who are employed vs not in the labor force?

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/disabl.pdf



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08 Jun 2021, 10:33 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Hmmm, speaking of haters...hey, have you ever heard of Nadine Strossen? She was the first woman president of the ACLU and served from 1991 to 2008. She recently wrote a book entitled “Hate: Why We Should Resist It with Free Speech, Not Censorship.” She is a feminist who is outspoken in her views on free expression. When she was asked in an interview how she felt about conservatives being silenced on social media, she said that it is not the proper role of government to limit free expression. However, even though we all HAVE freedom of expression, none of us have any obligation to give a microphone to ideas we disagree with. Individuals can do what they like on THEIR platforms, even if it means banning conservatives. She said that the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world are MUCH more dangerous than the Donald Trumps because government officials can be recalled, lose re-election campaigns, be impeached, and so forth. But the government has no such power over social media and other means of self-expression.

I wonder what Nadine Strossen would have to say about personal responsibility?


Why oh why is it when I question certain things about our society I'm considered jealous, envious or a hater?

And, actually I agree with what she says. And, I have tons to say about feminists and feminism as well. And, when I question feminists on their nonsense I'm mansplaining or I'm a sexist.



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08 Jun 2021, 10:38 pm

Hey, can someone weigh in and give their thoughts please? Kraftie? Aghogday, others? Cornflake, may I have your thoughts?

Am I really right in what I'm saying? I think so. The stats from the bureau of labor of statistics seems to support what I say for disabled people. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/disabl.pdf

Is AngelRho right or biased himself?

How do we tell either way what is exactly what?

Anyone besides AngelRho, am I wrong in anyway? Am I truthfully biased? Is AngelRho right or biased in some way as well? I think he is biased in a number of things. But, maybe I am as well.

If I am, please show me and give your thoughts?



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08 Jun 2021, 10:44 pm

I don’t see anybody considering you jealous, envious, and a hater.

I believe AngelRho believes firmly in the Horatio Alger ethos. I believe in it, with some reservations.



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08 Jun 2021, 10:48 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t see anybody considering you jealous, envious, and a hater.

I believe AngelRho believes firmly in the Horatio Alger ethos. I believe in it, with some reservations.


And, my belief in it is limited. To me, life is simply to complex.

And, no no one is outright saying those things. But, a certain part of what AngelRho was trying to convey to me implies that I am jealous, envious and a hater. But, maybe that wasn't what he was conveying so I will give the benefit of doubt on that.