Obama - 'Defund the Police' is bad messaging

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cyberdad
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05 Dec 2020, 2:14 am

VegetableMan wrote:
I think the real message should be "demilitarize the police."


Agree with Obama and agree with Vegieman

Prof. Louis Gates Jr from Harvard African Americans studies is one of the most sensible voices in the AA community. He says that groups like the black panthers and BLM have created an environment where young black people are not permitted to think for themselves about issues like this.

The police force needs reorientation not defunding.



Antrax
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05 Dec 2020, 2:18 am

League_Girl wrote:
Defund the police does not mean get rid of them, it just means put the money somewhere else than putting it all into the police.

Quote:
It's a common misconception that "defunding the police" means completely stripping law enforcement of all of their funding. While while some organizations are indeed calling for the abolishment or dismantling of police altogether, "defunding the police" simply means reducing police department budgets and redistributing those funds towards essential social services that are often underfunded, such as housing, education, employment, mental health care, and youth services.


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It's a slogan trying to appeal to two groups:

The first is the "reform the police" group, where the police role is reformed and refined, and money is invested in things like mental health services etc. The budget of the police would shrink, but so would its obligations.

The second is the "abolish the police" group, where police funding is slashed as a first step to removing police departments and replacing them with some "community-oriented" approach which depending on the proposal sounds like either a new police department or straight anarchy.

It's naive to assume that the slogan means one thing to all who use it.


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funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2020, 2:51 am

VegetableMan wrote:
I think the real message should be "demilitarize the police."


That would be a good place to start.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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05 Dec 2020, 5:45 am

Antrax wrote:
It's naive to assume that the slogan means one thing to all who use it.

But wait a minute, isn't meaning everything to everyone the way to bring the community together?


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05 Dec 2020, 7:37 am

Black Lives Matter Activist: Abolishing The Police '100%' Means Just That

NY Times op-ed clears up 'Defund the police' confusion: 'Yes, we mean literally abolish the police'

Quote:
Anti-criminalization activist Mariame Kaba attempted to settle the debate with the op-ed, "Yes, we mean literally abolish the police."

"Congressional Democrats want to make it easier to identify and prosecute police misconduct; Joe Biden wants to give police departments $300 million. But efforts to solve police violence through liberal reforms like these have failed for nearly a century," Kaba began. "Enough. We can’t reform the police. The only way to diminish police violence is to reduce contact between the public and the police."

She then attempted to dispel the notion that police are meant to "catch the bad guys," something she suggests is a "myth" since most arrests they make aren't felonies.

"The first thing to point out is that police officers don’t do what you think they do. They spend most of their time responding to noise complaints, issuing parking and traffic citations, and dealing with other noncriminal issues," Kaba explained. "We can’t simply change their job descriptions to focus on the worst of the worst criminals. That’s not what they are set up to do."
.

The above abolitionists have a point.
The ideology behind BLM and a lot of the wokes is Critical Race Theory which posits that racism is not a bug but a central feature of America and has been since the beginning. If you sincerely believe this the only logical solution is a revolution that abolishes pretty much everything. If you believe in Critical Race Theory and say you are for reforming the system either you are in denial or you believe reform is a necessary evil, something one has to settle for the time being.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Dec 2020, 2:19 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

This article says:

Quote:
The Minneapolis city council unanimously pledged to abolish the city’s police force last month and replace it with a “Department of Community Safety and Violence Prevention.”

It will be interesting to see exactly what a “Department of Community Safety and Violence Prevention” does, and how it works out. I suspect it will, of necessity, end up being similar to the police in a lot of ways, but we'll see....


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 05 Dec 2020, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Dec 2020, 2:26 pm

Quote:
the new department would consist of peace officers working to ensure public safety through “a holistic, public health-oriented approach.”


I guess "abolish the police" means "abolish police patrols" which disproportionately skulk around African American neighborhoods, to no benefit for those residents and for serious danger.

We still need people to catch serial killers, rapists, and all that. If someone is stalking you, or actively holding up a bank or convenience store, some level of law enforcement is necessary.

I've heard that some police organizations are actually tied to white supremacist organizations, though. The police need to interrogate themselves.


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Whale_Tuune
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05 Dec 2020, 2:27 pm

Quote:
He says that groups like the black panthers and BLM have created an environment where young black people are not permitted to think for themselves about issues like this.


The group or the slogan? The group can be critiqued like any other human organization, but the slogan seems unproblematic and necessary.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Dec 2020, 2:38 pm

Here's the actual Minneapolis ordinance: Amending Article VII of the City Charter relating to Administration, pertaining to the creation of a new Charter Department to provide for community safety and violence prevention, and the removal of the Police Department as a Charter Department (PDF).

I notice that the new "Charter Department" of "Community Safety and Violence Prevention" has a "Division of Law Enforcement Services," which looks to me like a de facto police department, except that it's subsumed under a larger, more general-purpose bureaucratic entity. It remains to be seen whether doing this will substantially reduce abuses, while at the same time being at least as effective as form of law enforcement.

Time will tell, I guess. If it works, great! If not, back to the drawing board....


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 05 Dec 2020, 2:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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05 Dec 2020, 2:39 pm

I agree with Obama on this one. I don't always agree with him. Having said that, this is a mutual feeling that I share with him.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Dec 2020, 2:56 pm

Looks like that Minneapolis ordinance isn't actually happening after all, at least not this year:

Minneapolis leaders push ahead with efforts to change police by Amy Forliti, AP News, August 6, 2020.

So it will be a while, if ever, before we get a chance to see how this idea works out, alas.


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Antrax
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05 Dec 2020, 3:06 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Looks like that Minneapolis ordinance isn't actually happening after all, at least not this year:

Minneapolis leaders push ahead with efforts to change police by Amy Forliti, AP News, August 6, 2020.

So it will be a while, if ever, before we get a chance to see how this idea works out, alas.


Prediction: It will be very "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

Police departments can be improved and sometimes the easiest way to do that is to shutter the old department and start a new one from scratch. But fundamentally replacing the police with something else is not realistic.


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05 Dec 2020, 5:56 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I agree with Obama on this one. I don't always agree with him. Having said that, this is a mutual feeling that I share with him.


I'm delighted you brought back Sgt. Schultz!


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kdm1984
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05 Dec 2020, 6:13 pm

Just had a discussion with the husband about this the other day. Agree with Obama. "Police reform" is a better phrase.


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Tim_Tex
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06 Dec 2020, 1:03 pm

I’ve suggested partial automation of police.



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06 Dec 2020, 2:07 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I’ve suggested partial automation of police.


Can't see that going wrong.



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