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Bradleigh
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17 Jun 2021, 11:24 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Superhero comics never brought up religions and never told about the superheroes’ faiths, so I find this character so stupid.


That would work, if you did not have a whole lot of people that say things like assuming that the default religion for an "American" is Christian. That Captain America can say something like "There's only one God, ma'​am and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that" and no one bats an eye. Do you think people hold the same standard if a super hero character suddenly says something Christian? The don't show it camp seems squarely for characters who are a different religion, and so to not just have an assumption of a single religion you make it explicit that there is some diversity.

The idea of religion not being in superhero comics is ridiculous when many have things like literal religious aspects like angels and demons.


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17 Jun 2021, 11:26 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well I cannot judge the comments and haven't read them, I can only go by the movie themselves. But I also felt the new Charlie's Angels movie went woke, and the original TV show is from the 70s as well. Just because something came out before the woke era, doesn't mean you cannot make it woke later on.


Well...I guess there's some logic to that. I tend to think that market forces dictate whether what is perceived as "woke" is commercially risky or not. For example the Hunger Games was labelled "woke" by fans because of they claimed that producers were shoving diversity down their throats. Same with Disney's star wars trilogy which had women in lead roles that irked the fans. Obviously both franchises enjoyed box office success regardless,

Same with Black panther, it was a box office smash owing to drawing in audiences who might not have otherwise watched Marvel.


Oh really, what did Black Panther have to draw in audiences more, compared to other Marvel movies? I found it be a lesser Marvel movie for me compared to some.

But I never thought of The Hunger Games as woke. What diversity in the movie specifically? I haven't read the book, but just saw the movie and can only go by that.



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17 Jun 2021, 11:36 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh really, what did Black Panther have to draw in audiences more, compared to other Marvel movies? I found it be a lesser Marvel movie for me compared to some..

The black audience. To be fair, all the Marvel movies are pretty lame, although I found Thor and Guardians of the Galaxy to be funny. The special effects in black panther are impressive (I don't particularly care for the story), no problem watching any of the Marvel movies for that reason but refuse to watch Loki or Wandavision,

ironpony wrote:
But I never thought of The Hunger Games as woke. What diversity in the movie specifically? I haven't read the book, but just saw the movie and can only go by that.


The book fans got really irate and angry with the replacement of characters they thought (in their imaginations apparently) were white with black actors. However, the writer Suzanne Collins said the fans got it wrong as she deliberately left the race of many of the main characters ambiguous (dark complexion, curly haired etc) but the fans clearly filled in the blanks and imagined a little blonde girl as Rue (for example) when Rue's character could also have been black.



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17 Jun 2021, 11:45 pm

Oh well I haven't seen The Hunger Games since it came out and I only remember six characters, all who were white. I recall one black character vaguely, but not any others.

Giving then a non-white race, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Black Panther I thought had some preachy themes, when I thought maybe it should have just been a superhero movie. I've seen much better Marvel movies though in my opinion.

But I didn't think The Hunger Games was broke just for race switching some of the characters.



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18 Jun 2021, 1:31 am

ironpony wrote:
Black Panther I thought had some preachy themes, when I thought maybe it should have just been a superhero movie. I've seen much better Marvel movies though in my opinion..


Its a pity because I didn't connect with any of the characters in black panther. But the standout characters were the bad guy Ulysses Klaue played by Andy Serkis (he played Golum in Lord of the Rings) and Martin Freeman who played the CIA director and was Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit. I didn't find black panther to be preachy? but the story was lame and the black actors chosen were not that impressive.

ironpony wrote:
But I didn't think The Hunger Games was broke just for race switching some of the characters.


Most of the ruckus on race switching happened prior to the first movie on social media. The comments from fans was very nasty and cringey,



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18 Jun 2021, 9:35 am

Well I thought the forced preachiness came in when the movie is suppose to take place in Africa with an plot in Africa in concern with an African nation, but they talk about how they want to solve racial problems in the US and it felt like it was just trying to force American issue onto a story, that didn't have or need anything to do with that. I thought that's what woke meant when it comes to entertainment, when you try to force issues onto a story where the issues are not naturally there, and it becomes an agenda.

Or at least that is how I interpreted the movie, when I saw it. But I felt the movie was trying to be woke in another way too. In the scene where they attempt a coup on the nation, notice how everyone who is for the coup is male, and everone trying to fight against the coup is female. I thought that was very odd, and what were the filmmakers trying to say with that, when you make all 'the good characters' female in that sequence, and all the bad ones male. So that felt like they were trying force something onto it as well.

And things like this in recent Hollywood movies is why I go to foreign non-English films, because non-English speaking countries haven't seem to have gotten into the woke scene, when it comes to entertainment.

Another example of woke entertainment is the new Anne Boleyn miniseries, which got a lot of backlash because they decided to make Anne Boleyn black. I just couldn't believe the historical context at all, with that change, and it felt forced and woke therefore.

Since I watch a lot of Asian movies, they would never do that to one of their historical figures and get sucked into that woke movement it seems.



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18 Jun 2021, 5:54 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well I thought the forced preachiness came in when the movie is suppose to take place in Africa with an plot in Africa in concern with an African nation, but they talk about how they want to solve racial problems in the US and it felt like it was just trying to force American issue onto a story, that didn't have or need anything to do with that. I thought that's what woke meant when it comes to entertainment, when you try to force issues onto a story where the issues are not naturally there, and it becomes an agenda.

Or at least that is how I interpreted the movie, when I saw it. But I felt the movie was trying to be woke in another way too. In the scene where they attempt a coup on the nation, notice how everyone who is for the coup is male, and everone trying to fight against the coup is female. I thought that was very odd, and what were the filmmakers trying to say with that, when you make all 'the good characters' female in that sequence, and all the bad ones male. So that felt like they were trying force something onto it as well.


Yeah, I can see how you interpreted the plot-lines. I think Kathleen Kennedy has been accused of injecting "wokeness" into Disney productions of Star wars.

I understand a little of Africa/African culture which puts me at an advantage where I am able to filter out attempts by producers to push ideas of class and race into what is essentially a work of fiction. You also missed the part where Serkis;s character was supposed to portray a white Afrikaans South African mercenary symbolising the legacy of apartheid.

What you might also be missing is that black producers wanted to portray the black characters as noble and virtuous in Stan Lee's fictional universe, It plays up to stereotypes because in many ways it was being pitched to a black audience but is sufficiently casted and furnished with enough CGI to make it interesting to a wider audience.

To me it's no more "woke" than accusations that "Pretty woman" starring Julia Roberts was an attempt to inject feminism and be preachy about women who work in the sex industry. I know a lot of conservative christians watched that movie, doesn't that conflict with their christian valiues? Probably the most woke rock band in the history of music, Rage against the Machine (RATM) was so popular that many Trump politicians played it at their rallies. Ironically they have no problem with wokeness despite RATM literally being BLM before BLM existed.

To me this anti-woke movement is fake and it's only purpose is to weaponise social justice against the left.



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18 Jun 2021, 11:23 pm

Oh you are saying that there are no woke movies, and it's just something people say to put down the left basically?



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19 Jun 2021, 2:28 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh you are saying that there are no woke movies, and it's just something people say to put down the left basically?


I'm not saying there isn't a bit of "wokeness" weaved into movie scripts. Again Nobody cared with Cher's movie "Mask" which was basically lecturing people about respecting disability.

The only reason the right are reacting to things like Black Panther or Hunger games is because they hate being lectured about race and gender.

These things shouldn't bother reasonable people. At the end of the day it's creative entertainment and art.



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19 Jun 2021, 9:21 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh you are saying that there are no woke movies, and it's just something people say to put down the left basically?


I'm not saying there isn't a bit of "wokeness" weaved into movie scripts. Again Nobody cared with Cher's movie "Mask" which was basically lecturing people about respecting disability.

The only reason the right are reacting to things like Black Panther or Hunger games is because they hate being lectured about race and gender.

These things shouldn't bother reasonable people. At the end of the day it's creative entertainment and art.


Oh well I thought the reason people were reacting too it is because it felt forced. I didn't have a problem with The Hunger Games, but for some movies, you read the synopsis, and then later, when you see the movie, you feel that the race and gender politics in them were forced onto it, rather than make a movie about those issues in the first place.

That's what a 'woke' movie is, is one that forces the issues onto stories that they would not naturally fit in. Why don't these woke people actually make a story that naturally deals with those issues rather than force them onto stories that don't. That is where I thought it counted as woke. It's not that an audience doesn't like to be lectured, it's just that they don't want just anyone to do the lecturing.

For random example, if you go to a monster truck show, you don't expect someone to preaching about race and gender politics. It's the forcing that's the problem with trying to be 'woke' in entertainment. Why don't woke filmmakers actually want to make a real story about the issues and own it? That's the conondrum.

Rather than making movies that actually deal with the issues, woke movies are movies that merely exploit the issues, and nothing more. It's not that I am against gender and race issues, it's just I don't like seeing exploitation movies over it.



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19 Jun 2021, 10:42 am

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh you are saying that there are no woke movies, and it's just something people say to put down the left basically?


I'm not saying there isn't a bit of "wokeness" weaved into movie scripts. Again Nobody cared with Cher's movie "Mask" which was basically lecturing people about respecting disability.

The only reason the right are reacting to things like Black Panther or Hunger games is because they hate being lectured about race and gender.

These things shouldn't bother reasonable people. At the end of the day it's creative entertainment and art.


Oh well I thought the reason people were reacting too it is because it felt forced. I didn't have a problem with The Hunger Games, but for some movies, you read the synopsis, and then later, when you see the movie, you feel that the race and gender politics in them were forced onto it, rather than make a movie about those issues in the first place.

That's what a 'woke' movie is, is one that forces the issues onto stories that they would not naturally fit in. Why don't these woke people actually make a story that naturally deals with those issues rather than force them onto stories that don't. That is where I thought it counted as woke. It's not that an audience doesn't like to be lectured, it's just that they don't want just anyone to do the lecturing.

For random example, if you go to a monster truck show, you don't expect someone to preaching about race and gender politics. It's the forcing that's the problem with trying to be 'woke' in entertainment. Why don't woke filmmakers actually want to make a real story about the issues and own it? That's the conondrum.

Rather than making movies that actually deal with the issues, woke movies are movies not that merely exploit the issues, and nothing more. It's not that I am against gender and race issues, it's just I don't like seeing exploitation movies over it.

Making you uncomfortable is central to their strategy. They want to make you uncomfortable as much and as often as they can. If you object to their “reminding” you about racism during your leisure time be it a movie or watching a sporting event or your dinner at an outdoor cafe, they have their got you moment. They will say something along the lines of “What type of snowflake are you that you can’t take being reminded of important things like systematic racism during your precious game? If you don’t like it, don’t watch” If you do not watch you are engaging in the cancel culture you accuse them of and depriving yourself of quality entertainment. The idea is to if possible make you woke and be their ally or if not get you to figure out resistance is futile, and if those two are not possible make you isolated and irrelevant.


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19 Jun 2021, 9:23 pm

Well what I don't understand is why they think people are snowflakes for not wanting woke movies, because the woke movement was born out of snowflakes who are prudishly offended by everything in entertainment, so I feel like they are one to talk about snowflakes when they can't handle non-woke entertainment themselves.

It's not that I cannot handle it, it's just it doesn't work when you force into the story. It's not us being snowflakes, we just don't like things that are forced in storytelling. That's not bad though, is it?



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19 Jun 2021, 9:27 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well what I don't understand is why they think people are snowflakes for not wanting woke movies, because the woke movement was born out of snowflakes who are prudishly offended by everything in entertainment, so I feel like they are one to talk about snowflakes when they can't handle non-woke entertainment themselves.

It's not that I cannot handle it, it's just it doesn't work when you force into the story. It's not us being snowflakes, we just don't like things that are forced in storytelling. That's not bad though, is it?


You can be creative/artistic without being a bigot. It's not rocket science.



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19 Jun 2021, 9:46 pm

But they are movies that do not have woke politics forced onto them, and at the same time, the movies are not bigotted. So it is possible to not be bigotted in entertainment, but at the same time, not have forced politics shoved onto it either.



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19 Jun 2021, 10:05 pm

ironpony wrote:
So it is possible to not be bigotted in entertainment, but at the same time, not have forced politics shoved onto it either.


This is determined by the marketplace ironpony. Conversely (don't forget) Hollywood and even independent films are constantly accused of being anti-diversity #Oscarssowhite. You can't have it both ways.



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20 Jun 2021, 2:21 am

Oh well I just always take it that a movie should be what it is based on the story. Some stories call for diversity, some don't. Some stories call for certain themes, and some don't rather than them being forced sometimes.

But why not just make movies as to what works for the story rather than filling agendy boxes? Isn't story more important to a lot of moviegoers and fiction lovers?