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ironpony
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07 Jul 2021, 9:36 pm

Oh okay. One thing about things being cancelled is you see things like the Indian character from The Simpsons wanting to be cancelled, or for Aunt Jemima to be cancelled, etc. So basically every non-white fictional character from a company or piece of entertainment in the past is offensive, and needs to be cancelled.

But you know who the only characters in fiction, that are going to be left in the end... The white characters. So I don't see how that's progress at all.



cyberdad
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07 Jul 2021, 9:51 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. One thing about things being cancelled is you see things like the Indian character from The Simpsons wanting to be cancelled, or for Aunt Jemima to be cancelled, etc. So basically every non-white fictional character from a company or piece of entertainment in the past is offensive, and needs to be cancelled.

But you know who the only characters in fiction, that are going to be left in the end... The white characters. So I don't see how that's progress at all.


It depends how invested we are in these characters. I think Apu (for example) might have offended a handful of south Asians but not most. South Asians as a whole are very tolerant and accepting of other people's beliefs and cultures, Literally one Indian-American comedian made an issue about Apu (Hari Kondabalu) and while many of his stereotypical characteristics were offensive most Indians follow the philosophy of "live and let live" so they don't vocalise their objections to the character.

Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are complicated in that many African Americans may actually have a sense of pride that their imagery was used on very popular and historically widespread used food products. They are literally cultural icons in the African American psyche, however their imagery was perhaps an example of an era where perhaps the people's whose faces were used didn't have much autonomy and for all we know were tricked or coerced into using their image.



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07 Jul 2021, 10:01 pm

Yeah I'm not saying there is a large fan base that will miss the characters, but I still feel that it comes off as racist to more non-white characters, even if they are more minor ones, or not popular ones.

Or Speedy Gonzalez from Looney Tunes for example. My Dad lives in Mexico for some of year and all the Mexicans loved this character and felt it was racist how he was removed. Notice how no one asked Latin Americans how they felt about it, the decision was made for them that it was racist, and now a Latin American character is gone from fiction because white people thought it was racist to have such a character. Seems like the cancellers were the real racists there, or at least from Latin American people's POV my Dad knows.



cyberdad
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07 Jul 2021, 10:18 pm

ironpony wrote:
Yeah I'm not saying there is a large fan base that will miss the characters, but I still feel that it comes off as racist to more non-white characters, even if they are more minor ones, or not popular ones.

Or Speedy Gonzalez from Looney Tunes for example. My Dad lives in Mexico for some of year and all the Mexicans loved this character and felt it was racist how he was removed. Notice how no one asked Latin Americans how they felt about it, the decision was made for them that it was racist, and now a Latin American character is gone from fiction because white people thought it was racist to have such a character. Seems like the cancellers were the real racists there, or at least from Latin American people's POV my Dad knows.


Yes I think conversely many Indians felt having Apu on the Simpsons was representative and the fact he was running a Kwikimart was a source of pride.



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07 Jul 2021, 10:28 pm

So you're saying the Indians liked it then? Also, I don't get what is so offensive about Indians running a convenience store. You see them all the time working in convenience stores in real life, so it seems realistic.



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07 Jul 2021, 10:30 pm

ironpony wrote:
So you're saying the Indians liked it then? Also, I don't get what is so offensive about Indians running a convenience store. You see them all the time working in convenience stores in real life, so it seems realistic.


Have you ever bothered to investigate the criticisms? You can easily research the nature of the complaints so you don't need to reduce them to such over-simplifications.


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ironpony
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07 Jul 2021, 10:31 pm

The complaints where people thought it was offensive. It seems the cancelers want to simplify it as well.



cyberdad
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07 Jul 2021, 10:40 pm

ironpony wrote:
Also, I don't get what is so offensive about Indians running a convenience store. You see them all the time working in convenience stores in real life, so it seems realistic.


Among Indians who have family who are professionals they feel it typecasts Indians as unskilled, backward and shifty



ironpony
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07 Jul 2021, 10:43 pm

But isn't The Simpsons just portraying the Indian as realistic, since a lot of Indians run convenience stores in real life, or at least the ones I have been to? I don't see being realistic in fictiona as offensive. I don't think all Indian characters have to be portrayed as University or MIT geniuses that have government jobs, do they?



cyberdad
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08 Jul 2021, 12:23 am

ironpony wrote:
But isn't The Simpsons just portraying the Indian as realistic, since a lot of Indians run convenience stores in real life, or at least the ones I have been to? I don't see being realistic in fictiona as offensive. I don't think all Indian characters have to be portrayed as University or MIT geniuses that have government jobs, do they?


I mean there's mixed reaction. Indians are the most successful minority group in America in terms of income and higher education and professional employment (they are actually more successful than whites, jews and east Asians). Yet east Asians and jews are propped up as American success stories. So really Indians have nothing much to complain about.

I'm just saying convenience store owners aren't the only job Indians do and that may be where the Apu stereotype is a little racist. But as I said Indians are extremely family/work focussed and don't bother with how they are depicted in the media. Hari Kondabalu made an issue about Apu around 12 years ago when the social media age was really emerging and he was using the internet as a platform to promote Indian humor so his issue was why was a white man making money out of doing brownface/indian voice (he probably thought he could do a better job as a Indian comedian).



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08 Jul 2021, 1:05 am

But if Abu being a convenience store owner is offensive, because it's a stereotype, then why is that so many Indians work in convenience stores in real life then, if they are just re-enforcing the stereotype by doing that?



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08 Jul 2021, 1:31 am

ironpony wrote:
But if Abu being a convenience store owner is offensive, because it's a stereotype, then why is that so many Indians work in convenience stores in real life then, if they are just re-enforcing the stereotype by doing that?

I'd be impressed if Abu could run a convience store.

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cyberdad
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08 Jul 2021, 1:39 am

ironpony wrote:
But if Abu being a convenience store owner is offensive, because it's a stereotype, then why is that so many Indians work in convenience stores in real life then, if they are just re-enforcing the stereotype by doing that?


Its not that they work in convenience stores that's the problem. It's the depiction of Apu being shify/a cheapskate.

Most Indians work in convenience stores and other part-time jobs because a) they are hardworking and b) they are trying to put their kids through college.

I don't see that particularly highlighted in Apu's character but then its a comedy and the average Indian recognises they have better things to do with their life than get upset over a children's cartoon that plays on stereotypes to entertain white teenagers.



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08 Jul 2021, 2:43 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But isn't The Simpsons just portraying the Indian as realistic, since a lot of Indians run convenience stores in real life, or at least the ones I have been to? I don't see being realistic in fictiona as offensive. I don't think all Indian characters have to be portrayed as University or MIT geniuses that have government jobs, do they?


I mean there's mixed reaction. Indians are the most successful minority group in America in terms of income and higher education and professional employment (they are actually more successful than whites, jews and east Asians). Yet east Asians and jews are propped up as American success stories. So really Indians have nothing much to complain about.

I'm just saying convenience store owners aren't the only job Indians do and that may be where the Apu stereotype is a little racist. But as I said Indians are extremely family/work focussed and don't bother with how they are depicted in the media. Hari Kondabalu made an issue about Apu around 12 years ago when the social media age was really emerging and he was using the internet as a platform to promote Indian humor so his issue was why was a white man making money out of doing brownface/indian voice (he probably thought he could do a better job as a Indian comedian).

So the issue is not that a South Asian is shown running a convenience store. Its that a South Asian voice actor doesnt get paid to do the South Asian character's voice?

Though it is true that not all, or even most, South Asian Americans work in convenience stores....it IS true that a large chunk of folks who run American convenience stores are brown skinned immigrants. I count inventory for 7-11 stores, and it appears that about 85 percent of 7-11s are run Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, and the remaining ones are all run Somalians from the horn of Africa.

I think that ALL South Asian folks should be sued for...making fun of Peter Sellers every time they speak! :lol:



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08 Jul 2021, 9:01 am

Well is really important that the race of the actor matches the race of the character all the time? For example, no one comes after Schindler's List, because some of the Jewish actors are not actually Jewish for example, but maybe in time Schindler's List will be cancelled as well in a sense, because of that?



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08 Jul 2021, 9:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Though it is true that not all, or even most, South Asian Americans work in convenience stores....it IS true that a large chunk of folks who run American convenience stores are brown skinned immigrants. I count inventory for 7-11 stores, and it appears that about 85 percent of 7-11s are run Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, and the remaining ones are all run Somalians from the horn of Africa.


I don't dispute the data. But its about depiction. Most Indians aren't fopls. They know the perception Apu creates that he's cheap and shifty comes (shock! horror!) straight from the minds of white writers/producers own perception of their experience with 7-11 staff. It's not rocket science.

It's the same with Peter Sellar's awfully stereotypical depiction of an Indian (which admittedly was quite funny). It's basically from the minds of the white writers. No different really from blackface minstrels.