Soytheist - "Veganism Is A Privilege" Debunked

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RushKing
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ArtsyFarsty
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13 Jun 2021, 9:33 pm

I have been vegan for almost my whole life so, hopefully, qualified to address his responses.

1. Education around nutrition: they are both correct. While malnutrition is not an exclusively vegan concern, the idea that animal products are essential for proper nutrition does need to be dismantled in order for veganism to be more accessible. For example, at one time I qualified for WIC (a supplemental nutrition program for pregnant or nursing women, and for children under 5); many of the food vouchers provided were for foods that contained animal products, as they were deemed essential nutrition. While I was and will always be grateful for the assistance I received when I needed it, I was surprised that I could not substitute or exchange the vouches for plant-based alternatives, unless there was a medically-documented reason to do so, such as a dairy allergy.

2. Poverty: This is not about having the disposable income to buy Almond Breeze and Beyond Burgers, but about the very real obstacles faced by people living in poverty in the developed world, such as the only vegan option on the Dollar Menu being french fries. As someone who has lived in poverty but no longer does, I am acutely aware of the resources it takes to maintain a balanced vegan diet; poverty derails all of those resources, specifically money and time. This is especially true for parents living in poverty, who also have to worry about the resources needed to meet the nutritional needs of growing children.

3. Negative relationship with food: Oh, sweet summer child. I adore his innocence to the fact that many young people, particularly young women, adopt veganism as a way to hide their eating disorder, or have an eating disorder triggered by restrictive dieting practices (ie. veganism). Myself included. While I no longer have the end goal to be a breatharian, I still am absolutely obsessed with every morsel of food that crosses my lips. While I am privileged to be able to be that picky (more on that in point 4), I now have the life experience to realize that I have to do so in a manner that allows me to meet of my nutritional needs.

4. Food Banks: I'm not sure what "struggle food" looks like in India, but in the United States it tends to be heavy on cheap, shelf-stable animal products. The 1 year of my adult life that I consumed animal products was the year I was homeless and couch-surfing, with the bulk of my diet coming from local food pantries and the dollar store. When one is facing food insecurity, it is incredibly hard to avoid animal products when you are limited to such foods as canned ravioli or beefaroni, canned baked beans (the pork and beans kind), tuna, deviled ham/potted meat, Vienna sausages, shelf-stable milk and cheese. There was virtually never fresh fruits or veggies (my "greens" were often times dandelion leaves picked from the sides of the road), and bags of dried rice and beans assumes that the recipient has the facilities and potable water to prepare them, AND refrigeration to store them after preparation. With that said, while he offers NO solutions, I applaud and respect that he address toward the end of this point that ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I feel zero remorse for my year of animal consumption (although my intestines felt like they were telescoping into themselves) because I too am an animal; no one shames a lion for devouring a springbok, so why show any less grace toward a human animal who needs to survive on what resources it has?

I am in a very different place in my life now. One where I am privileged to have the resources to shop in bulk to purchase and store a ton of fresh produce and wholesome foods; to have another meal to eat while I wait for dried beans to soak overnight; to have a few hours free on weekends to meal-prep for the coming week; to keep an expensive canister of vegan protein powder on hand in case meal-prep gets derailed; a spouse to prepare non-vegan options for himself and the children, so I'm not cooking two separate meals every night, or simply giving up out of exhaustion to consume animal products.

Social Barriers: I absolutely with him, but maintain that vegans who are more financially-secure have a duty to make veganism more accessible to those less fortunate. I don't forget where I came from, so all of my food pantry donations are nutritious vegan staples, which can be consumed by even those without kitchen facilities.



tensordyne
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15 Jun 2021, 7:04 pm

Only Vegans seem interested in this topic. Excuses, excuses; always more excuses whenever we need change. SJ Woke intersecting with Vegan makes me cringe. Stop it BBC!


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15 Jun 2021, 7:12 pm

I have yet to meet a Vegan whose evangelical rhetoric would not put a Baptist preacher's sermon to shame.


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tensordyne
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15 Jun 2021, 10:36 pm

Quote:
I have yet to meet a Vegan whose evangelical rhetoric would not put a Baptist preacher's sermon to shame.


Excellent! I guess abolitionists back in the day must have been mighty annoying to slave-owners, but somehow I don't think they cared; and frankly neither do I.


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16 Jun 2021, 10:35 am

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
I have yet to meet a Vegan whose evangelical rhetoric would not put a Baptist preacher's sermon to shame.
Excellent! I guess abolitionists back in the day must have been mighty annoying to slave-owners, but somehow I don't think they cared; and frankly neither do I.
I have heard or read all of the arguments favoring Veganism and, having tried it, I am qualified to say that Veganism is just another dietetic fad coupled with evangelical fervor -- good for some; not so good for others.


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RushKing
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16 Jun 2021, 4:00 pm

Could you imagine the reaction I would get if I said that anti-sexism, anti-racism or anti-homophobia wasn't for everyone, and talked as if these things are just personal choices that don't affect anyone else?

The non-human animals we talk about are also individuals, who like you and me experience pain. Like you and me they value freedom/autonomy. Like you and me they don't want to get killed.

Veganism is not a diet. There are so many different ways to eat plants, and we don't need to buy brand new pairs of leather shoes or support circuses to exist.



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16 Jun 2021, 4:15 pm

Now you are equating non-veganism with sexism, racism, and homophobia.  This is ridiculous.  Eating a steak does not discriminate against any person on the basis of their race, color, religion, sex, gender identity, national origin, disability, or age.  Assuming that non-human animals have the same legal rights as human animals is naive.

As long as animals are slaughtered in ways that are humane (e.g., painless), halal, or kosher, no law is violated.


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16 Jun 2021, 4:34 pm

Fnord wrote:
Now you are equating non-veganism with sexism, racism, and homophobia.

Nope, I'm saying they are all forms of arbitrary discrimination. Sexism, racism and homophobia aren't all equal. But like carnism and speciesism, they are all forms of arbitrary discrimination that harm sentient individuals.



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16 Jun 2021, 4:39 pm

Please provide links to the legal definitions for "Carnism" and "Speciesism", and the penalties for their practice.


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RushKing
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16 Jun 2021, 4:48 pm

Fnord wrote:
Please provide links to the legal definitions for "Carnism" and "Speciesism", and the penalties for their practice.

The legality of an action does not necessarily determine the morality of a decision.



tensordyne
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16 Jun 2021, 4:49 pm

Quote:
Eating a steak does not discriminate against any person on the basis of their race, color, religion, sex, gender identity, national origin, disability, or age. Assuming that non-human animals have the same legal rights as human animals is naive.


Yeah, you are right, it is much worse than the discrimination so many have experienced in human societies. It is more like slavery, but at the end you also eat the slaves. It would be one thing if we needed to do that, but we don't. In fact, it is bad for us.

Quote:
As long as animals are slaughtered in ways that are (e.g., painless), halal, or kosher, no law is violated.


Now who is naive? There is no humane slaughter, kosher, halal or otherwise. How would you like to be humanely slaughtered if given the choice? Wait, I hear you say, you would rather not be slaughtered, humane or otherwise; funny that. :roll:


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16 Jun 2021, 4:50 pm

RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide links to the legal definitions for "Carnism" and "Speciesism", and the penalties for their practice.
The legality of an action does not necessarily determine the morality of a decision.
Ahh... but religion does, which supports my assertion that Veganism is a religion.


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16 Jun 2021, 4:52 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
Eating a steak does not discriminate against any person on the basis of their race, color, religion, sex, gender identity, national origin, disability, or age. Assuming that non-human animals have the same legal rights as human animals is naive.
Yeah, you are right, it is much worse than the discrimination so many have experienced in human societies. It is more like slavery, but at the end you also eat the slaves. It would be one thing if we needed to do that, but we don't. In fact, it is bad for us.
Quote:
As long as animals are slaughtered in ways that are (e.g., painless), halal, or kosher, no law is violated.
Now who is naive? There is no humane slaughter, kosher, halal or otherwise. How would you like to be humanely slaughtered if given the choice? Wait, I hear you say, you would rather not be slaughtered, humane or otherwise; funny that.
You assume too much about the alleged "personhood" of non-human animals.


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RushKing
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16 Jun 2021, 5:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide links to the legal definitions for "Carnism" and "Speciesism", and the penalties for their practice.
The legality of an action does not necessarily determine the morality of a decision.
Ahh... but religion does, which supports my assertion that Veganism is a religion.

I need to be religious to oppose certain actions? Listen to yourself dude.



tensordyne
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16 Jun 2021, 5:17 pm

Quote:
You assume too much about the alleged "personhood" of non-human animals.


What, as you claim, am I assuming? Why is "personhood", however it is to be defined, so relevant?

If meat is a non-necessary component in our diet that makes us sick and reduces the survivability of future generations, which it is those things, then why should I care about these particular morality questions? Just stop eating meat please. Kind of has the same feeling of "just put on the damn mask, thanks!"

Let's say we do care about morality though. If you follow the bible or are from one of the Abrahamic Faiths, then God said you are master and you can do as you wish. Pretty convenient and obviously created by egotistical humans (speciesist).

It is important to point out possible biases where they may exist. So if you come from such a background, is it not incumbent upon you to note that as a religious bias in the conversation? Like, you will never convince a Hindu that eating cow is OK. Just not going to happen, it is part of their faith. But if the Hindu does not point out their faith while arguing, they are being disingenuous. Are you being genuine with us Fnord?

I think something similar happens over the Vegan topic. People from various meat-eating cultures think Vegans are in a cultish faith. Funny thing is, they never consider the possibility that they are the ones in the Cult group with unstated assumptions. :lol:

Cheers!


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