Why can't you discuss religion with religious people?

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thinkinginpictures
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26 May 2021, 4:16 am

I'm wondering why any questioning of Judaism = antisemitism, any questioning of Christian traditions = anti-christian hate speech and any questioning of Islam = racism.

In general, I feel I can't discuss religion with religious people.

It's like they're being offended for no reason.

Why?



Brictoria
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26 May 2021, 6:13 am

Personally, I've never had an issue discussing religion with people of a wide range of faiths, but I would guess it could depend on how you approach them\the topic.

If someone comes across as aggressive or patronising, then those who (or whose beliefs) are being questioned will react in a very different way to how they may have reacted were a more neutral approach been taken.

Similarly, if those doing the questioning have a reputation\history of hostility to those with whom they disagree, then that would also affect the reaction from those being questioned.

I'm not saying that this is why you receive the reaction you do, not knowing how you approach the people\topic, but having looked at a couple of your more recent threads here, it certainly seems plausible:

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=397146
Here, you don't seem to be looking to discuss the topic, as much as push your own view. Had you simply started with a single question, then branched into the others as they areas came up, it would have a less "threatening"\"hostile" appearance to those you wish to discuss the topic with.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=397262
Here, whilst politics not religion is the subject, both areas tend to attract similar responces. In this case, you have asked a question in the subject, but then gone on to tell people what you believe all those of a given political belief are\believe in. This would likely immediately indicate to those whose political beliefs you are discussing that you were not looking to discover an answer to the supposed question, but were instead seeking to attack their belief (and given those I know who hold that belief in no way resemble what you claimed, that would be entirely understandable) would affect further interactions with\responces\reactions from them.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=397202
And this is why I think it likely that your approach is the problem:

Quote:
I cannot see what's wrong at directing hate-speech against people for something they've CHOSEN!
Like:
Religion and political opinions.


If you attack a person for a belief, they will either respond in kind, or become defensive. If you instead seek to discover the reason for\behind their belief and try and explain what you see as being wrong (remebering that they may also see as much wrong with your beliefs as you do with theirs) in a conversation (rather than confrontaional) manner, you would likely see much different reactions. People can respect those they disagree with (while still not agreeing with them) if they feel they are being treated fairly\as equals. Similarly, people will take instant offence at those they perceive as "bullying" them, or treating them as "lesser" because of the areas in which they disagree.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 May 2021, 6:23 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It's like they're being offended for no reason.
Why?


"No reason" eh.

"No Reason"?

Really?

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
What is the reason for this thread?


I'm trying to understand the motivations people have placing their brain in the parking lot, when attending a church service...


That looks like your 'trying to understand' is just an excuse to demean and devalue with your "brain in the parking lot" smartassery. Basically what you have said there is "I'm trying to understand what makes you people such a bunch of s**t for brains".

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Why?


So, basically what I'm saying here is that the answer to "Why?" is that your documented behavior in regard to this topic indicates that the root of your problem with this topic is your documented behavior in regard to this topic.


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thinkinginpictures
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26 May 2021, 7:13 am

Actually, I've been trying a non-hostile approach to the topic of religion, and I've been met with exactly the same kind of aggressiveness against my questioning. That's why I give up being polite and civilized.



Brictoria
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26 May 2021, 8:24 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Actually, I've been trying a non-hostile approach to the topic of religion, and I've been met with exactly the same kind of aggressiveness against my questioning. That's why I give up being polite and civilized.


Out of curiosity, did you try this new approach with people you had already tried similar discussions with, or was it people you had never had discussions with previously?

If the former, it would be likely previous discussions\interactions had affected how they would interpret any recent approaches from you.

As a suggestion, have you tried approaching the person you wish to have the discussion with, asking them to explain whatever point you may not agree with, and listening to them, then asking questions to lead them towards where you wish the discussion to go (seek to "learn" from them, not to preach at them)?

For example, using the topics I referenced in an earlier reply:
1) "Why do you believe the ressurection of Jesus matters?", leading on, based upon their responces, to questions such as "Why the need for a divine Christ?", or "Why the need for a super-human deity, when all you need to fulfill his wishes for humanity, can be achieved by mere actions in daily life?", etc.

2) "What is Conservatism - what does it mean?" - This would have been a perfect way to initiate a discussion ("What is _insert_religion_ - what does its adherents believe?", for example if discussing a religion), but this potential discussion was permanently prevented the instant a person looked at the first post, where instead of seeking answers, it was presenting claims which very few, if any, adherents to that belief would agree (at least, based on my online discussions with a number of them across several continents)...Had it begun with an open request for answers (from adherents, not those who denigrate the group - In a similar way that you wouldn't ask Jews to describe\explain Islam, or Muslims to describe\explain Judaism in the middle east - Or Protestants to explain Cathlocism, or Catholics to explain Protestantism in Ireland...While you may get accurate information, it is much more likely you will simply have people passing on their prejudices/biases instead - As is apparent through the responces you have received there, in general), and then gradually focussed in on the parts which you disagree with, asking simple questions, which both allow you to better understand the person you are talking with, as well as for you to gradually put forward your own beliefs so they can understand your point of view.

Just because you believe the views of a person are misguided doesn't mean that your views are neccesarily (or evven objectively) correct, or that their belief is objectively less worthy than your own...Religion (and other "belief"\"values" areas such as politics) are not absolutes, and are generally subjective with the adherent coming to their individual understanding based upon their own, personal experiences, changing if/when the individual feels their "needs" are not being met (as demonstrated by those who change religion because they "felt something was missing" in their previous choice).

Or, to condense this: Enter into these types of discussions with an intention to understand the other person and their viewpoint (as opposed to explaining to them what is wrong with it), listening to what they say, and responding with respectful questions that show you have listened to what they said, while still leading towards the area (or if there a multiple, focus on a single one) where you may disagree - "I understand you are saying XYZ, but have you considered the possibility of ABC instead?" or "While XYZ does explain some things, ABC also seems to explain this which seems to me to be a more plausible reason for it", etc.


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Quote:
"When people express opinions that differ from yours, take it as a chance to grow. Seek to understand over being understood. Be curious, not defensive. The only way to disarm another human being is by listening." - Glennon Doyle Melton

Quote:
"Never forget that you have every right to question any individual, system, movement, or group that only tolerates you when you think and behave exactly like them" - Africa Brooke

Quote:
“There was a saying that a man's true character was revealed in defeat. I thought it was also revealed in victory.”
― Alison Goodman, Eon: Dragoneye Reborn


Fnord
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26 May 2021, 8:28 am

There is nothing inherently wrong with discussing religion with religious people, as long as it is done without condescension or arrogance ...

... which is why I do not discuss religion with condescending or arrogant religious people ...

... which is why I rarely discuss religion with religious people at all.


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GGPViper
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26 May 2021, 9:03 am

Quite a lot of religious people believe that there is "One True Faith"... which often by coincidence (and very conveniently) happens to be *their* faith…

This appears to be a quite prevalent view among the Abrahamic religions, and it is largely tied to monotheism as a concept. It is less prevalent (but not absent) in the Asian/Eastern religious traditions - especially in Buddhism.

Naturally, it is somewhat difficult to engage in constructive discussions with people who start from the premise that they are "100 % right" and everyone who disagrees "is wrong/misguided/a heretic/a renegade etc.".

This attitude is not exclusive to religious discussions, however...



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26 May 2021, 9:16 am

For a long time, people on WP thought I was an atheist because I often posted against the excesses and hypocrisies of religious people.  Hating religion does not make someone an atheist.  I have my faith, which I rarely share with others; but religion was invented by people as a means to manipulate and rule over other people.

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." -- Voltaire


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aghogday
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26 May 2021, 11:00 am



When Faith Fears

Criticism, It Is Not Faith

Or Love; When Love Requires

Worship, It is Not Faith Or Love;

Obviously i'm Not Gonna Be

'Seen' As Easy to Get

ALong with

People

Who Neither Experience

Love or Faith That is Real;

Hehe, Yet That's Just my Religion;

Religion is What Bonds and Binds Folks

Together; No Matter Symbol of Reality or Essence Different

True,
IT May

Be A Solo

or Group Effort

As All Our Perceptions

End and Begin Within NOW

Yet Again This is my Religion;

Trust me or NOT, if it's Deep Enough, No One

Will Even Be Able to Uncover it Yet 'You'.. Hehe...

By Very Nature, Tradition Excludes... i Exclude No one
(Except AGAIN For those Damned 'SmartPhone People' Who
Wanna Sell Me Warranty Insurance on my 7 Year-Old Honda
Civic) in Traditional Terms, i Have No Religion Yet All that is...

i find it's

Best

To Discuss

Religion As A MoNoLogue;

Almost Like 'Part of A Condition'...

i surely Stand Alone And Tall in my Faith (Love) For All;

For Those Who Truly Have Secure Faith They Won't get

'Butthurt' Over Varying Opinions or Criticism...

Not Very Many

People

Stand

Allone Secure This way...

No Matter What Labels They Use to Breathe...

i Remember The First Day Moving Away From the
Small Locality That Had the Most Churches Per Square
Mile; Until that Point i Was Going to the Small Two Story

Junior College That Once Housed my Elementary School and
My Mother's High School too; When Arriving Across the River

to the Bigger University for the Next Step in Education, Taking Anthropology

Classes, Christianity Was Ridiculed for the Hypocrisies Associated With It and

Jesus Was Scoffed At

For Who He Truly

Was in Biblical Study;

(In Divinity School Ways)

Yes, Just Another Little

Brown Dude Crucified

Out of Many in the Middle East

Who Became Part of A Myth; A Legend;

A Story For Politics And Religion to Develop

As An Idol God To 'PIGGYBACK' on to Stay in Rule...

It's Not Easy Facing

The Dark Abyss

Within For Real;

Seeing Chaos

For What It is

And Creating Real Magic

Out of That And Actually 'Doing

God' As Most Folks Leave that Responsibility

to Others or Neglect it Almost All Together; Yet

'You' See, It's Like Life; We Inherit Part of it Innately

And Instinctually and We Create The Rest Open Source;

A Painting With Colors Beyond Rainbow Through Drab Grey SHades to

Below

The BLack

Abyss of

Nothing

At All Beyond

All Feelings And Senses;

Truly Separated As Human

Gets From All That Is; After 'That'

Point 'You' Develop Your Own Religion;

It's Common; Even Studied Among Theologians

As Stages of Faith That Move From Mythical to Love For All;

Love For All Yes

Be This All Now

Read That Last

Line Until 'You' Do It Now;

So Simple; Yet For Humans at Least so True...

'Crucifying The Myths' Were Helpful to me, Yes;

Yet 'They' Do Serve a Useful Purpose to House Sparks

of Truth in Light in Vehicles and Vessels of Hyperbole,

No Different Really Than Selling Everything With 'Sex' These Days...

That Wasn't allowed

Then so They

Turned

to A Myth

of Resurrection instead;

Last Prophets And Buddha

Born of A Virgin and Hercules too...

Why Read A Story When 'You' Act The Play...

That's in the Most Advanced Stages of 'Faith'; Few Arrive Yet Some DO...

Not Much Different Than Cicada's; More Intensive Study Than Caterpillar Cocoon's

For 'Rebirth'...NOW

HAha Imagine

How Much

Noise A Million

of me Would Make;

HAha; 'They' Say even

my Sneeze Will Be Heard

Around A Neighborhood Block

In A Home With Closed Doors and Windows

And

It's

No Myth;

Reality is so

Much More Fun

Than Living Vicariously
Through Other 'Legends' and 'Myths'...

True, THere's No Religion Like REAL BREATHING RELIGION NOW.

By Very Nature Asperger's Syndrome is Often Associated With Rigid Adherence

To Systemizing Ways of Being; By Very Nature it was most Definitely A Camel

Escaping

the Eye

of that

'Left Brain
Think' to Expand

my Mind to God Whole Natural Nature Now...

Obviously, This is the Last Place Folks Are Gonna Agree Hehe..

Yet You See; i Don't Go Where All i Get Is Honey Poured All Over me...

And True;

i do Go

To 'The Other Places' too...

Everything Becomes Easier

When You Become too 'Big to See'

Yet Always So Much to Feel By those Who Truly Love...

More Than Just Cold Hard Stones Written in Old Dusty Books

Without Even Any Frigging Humor...

It's Amazing How

Many People

Read A Book

That is the Worst Dam Boring Grey Vanilla SHaDeD

Book They've Ever Read, Just to Get to Heaven in a Dirt Nap...

At Least 'the Quran' Is A Bit More Poetic And Flowing for 'Men'...

i Don't Live Far From This As My Wife Reads the Old Testament Still

Not Having A Clue What The Hell They Are On About Thousands of Years Ago in Tribal Wars...

It's Amazing

What Humans

Will Be Convinced

They Have to Do... And
Never Give Up... And Never Even Arrive... Now...

To Each Her And Or HiS OWN; It Is What It Is We Co-Create...NoW...

Hint: When You Ever Get In A Room And Folks Raise ONE Book To the Heavens...

Ya

Got

Big Problems

Still Coming...

FoR Me at least

i Write A Thousand Plus

11 Times Greater Just For Fun in 93 Months...

Different Strokes of Pens Some Read Some Play



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26 May 2021, 11:11 am

Religious fundamentalism doesn't mix well with pondering the origins of religion.


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Fnord
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26 May 2021, 11:34 am

Cosmology does not mix well with religious fundamentalism when pondering the origins of the Universe.

Evolution does not mix well with religious fundamentalism when pondering the origins of the species.


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26 May 2021, 1:29 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I'm wondering why any questioning of Judaism = antisemitism, any questioning of Christian traditions = anti-christian hate speech and any questioning of Islam = racism.

In general, I feel I can't discuss religion with religious people.

It's like they're being offended for no reason.

Why?


When you wrote a thread recently, you worded it in a way that looked like you genuinely wanted to know the answer to a question, but your intention was for a debate.
In other words, the thread was designed to make people answer so you could then use those answers to debate with.

I therefore found myself feeling that I had been set up to be picked on rather then being valued for my reply and I was not ready for it as I did not expect it.

I hope this clarifies things. Lets put this behind us and carry on as if it did not happen.



thinkinginpictures
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26 May 2021, 2:47 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
When you wrote a thread recently, you worded it in a way that looked like you genuinely wanted to know the answer to a question, but your intention was for a debate.
In other words, the thread was designed to make people answer so you could then use those answers to debate with.

I therefore found myself feeling that I had been set up to be picked on rather then being valued for my reply and I was not ready for it as I did not expect it.

I hope this clarifies things. Lets put this behind us and carry on as if it did not happen.


What is wrong with debate?

Why do all religious people hate to discuss their faith? If they're so strongly convinced their faith is true, they should be able to defend it with ease and reason...



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26 May 2021, 6:05 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I'm wondering why any questioning of Judaism = antisemitism, any questioning of Christian traditions = anti-christian hate speech and any questioning of Islam = racism.

In general, I feel I can't discuss religion with religious people.

It's like they're being offended for no reason.

Why?



Funny story, I almost got kicked out of my church in 5th grade because I was being too logical and asking questions to make sense of it because what I was learning outside of church was contradicting what they were teaching me. I eventually became an athiest when I discovered there were more than one religion so that was contradictory. Some religions believe there is more than one god.

So in conclusion, there is no critical thinking in religion and no logic, there is no trying to make sense of it, you just go along with it and believe whatever you are told. My brain doesn't work that way.

It's not possible to discuss religion without offending anyone so I avoid this topic like a plague.


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26 May 2021, 6:17 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
When you wrote a thread recently, you worded it in a way that looked like you genuinely wanted to know the answer to a question, but your intention was for a debate.
In other words, the thread was designed to make people answer so you could then use those answers to debate with.

I therefore found myself feeling that I had been set up to be picked on rather then being valued for my reply and I was not ready for it as I did not expect it.

I hope this clarifies things. Lets put this behind us and carry on as if it did not happen.


What is wrong with debate?

Why do all religious people hate to discuss their faith? If they're so strongly convinced their faith is true, they should be able to defend it with ease and reason...


That isn't how religion works.


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26 May 2021, 7:34 pm

The key to talking with religious people is to always pretend that their imaginary friend and magical world is "real". The instant you shatter that illusion and don't go along with their fantasy, you've DiSrEsPeCtEd ThEm!! ! AtTaCkEd ThEm!! ! StArTeD a WaR aGaInSt ThEm!! !

Basically, you're allowed to ask ABOUT their religion, which lets the preach it - but you're NOT allowed to QUESTION it. Much like "muh freedum o' speech!", too many people think "muh freedum o' gawd!" somehow protects your feelings, or shields you (or your religion) from criticism.

The funny thing about people who scoff and say "YoU sHoUlD bE mOrE oPeN tO nEw IdEaS!" is, it's usually "YOU should be more open" to THEIR ideas - and never "I should be more open" to others' ideas. It's also funny when the people saying "YoU sHoUlD bE mOrE oPeN tO nEw IdEaS!" also think "they're right", and therefore don't NEED to accept new ideas, they already now the TRUTH. Basically you're not open minded cos you won't accept their truth. But that doesn't apply to THEM cos they're already open to the(ir) truth.