Does systemic racism against blacks even exist anymore?

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hurtloam
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08 Aug 2021, 10:47 am

I'm not sure there is much point asking us. We are a mostly white user base.

You would be better doing research. There's plenty of info out there.

Or are you looking for yes men to validate your stance?



salad
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08 Aug 2021, 10:53 am

hurtloam wrote:
I'm not sure there is much point asking us. We are a mostly white user base.

You would be better doing research. There's plenty of info out there.

Or are you looking for yes men to validate your stance?


All the research I've done has yielded ambiguous and mixed results

There is research that shows blacks are targeted by police more than whites, but also research that shows that when you control for criminality the disparity lessens and even reverses with whites having a higher per capital murder rate by the police. Other research shows that blacks face more aggressive behavior by police. And other research shows that police data is incomplete so conclusive statements are harder to make given police cover ups and lack of recording data

And why do you assume I'm looking for yes men to validate a question? I'm asking a question because I'm unsure of the answer

You've been really hostile to me and I dont understand why.


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IsabellaLinton
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08 Aug 2021, 10:57 am

Great video, Hurtloam. Thanks for sharing.

Just to clarify, when I mentioned Indigenous people, it wasn't to invalidate the individual or systemic racism which still persists against black people. I think a lot of improvement has been made since Mr Floyd's murder, but we're far from eliminating all prejudice, bias, racism, and bigotry overall.



Harry Haller
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08 Aug 2021, 2:32 pm

salad wrote:
What I am slightly skeptical of is the larger claim that modern American society is still objectively racist and systematically discriminatory towards African Americans

None of these attempted answers are suitable.
There is with each one a problem.

So - what's the problem with concluding it doesn't exist at all and moving on with life?
What is to be gained from polling the many here?

You are an independent thinker and so do not require anyone's blessing.

So what gives?



kraftiekortie
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08 Aug 2021, 3:07 pm

It still exists.

There are many “minority” people who do well….but there’s still racism out there which does stymie progress for some.

Within a New York City context, there are neighborhoods which remain segregated. There remains the typical socioeconomic problems characteristic of these neighborhoods. The situation is certainly much better these days—but much work remains to be done in this area. It is obvious to anybody who goes into these neighborhoods.

Racism isn’t the only cause of socioeconomic disenfranchisement….but it certainly doesn’t help.



auntblabby
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08 Aug 2021, 3:47 pm

there are none so blind as those who will not see. it is quite plain that there is systemic racism in many parts of the nation, even up here in the otherwise relatively enlightened pacific northwest. there was racism against me when i was in the army because i am not white. racism mostly going towards POC but some of it coming from them towards folks like myself who has been called "half breed" or words to that effect many times, to my face.



Fnord
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08 Aug 2021, 4:08 pm

salad wrote:
[...] I dont dispute the lived experiences of individual African Americans who have experienced racism. What I am slightly skeptical of is the larger claim that modern American society is still objectively racist and systematically discriminatory towards African Americans
A common argument used by racists is to say, "What happens to one or two blacks does happen to all blacks."  Yet these are the same people who see a news report about a single incident of black-on-white violence and declare that "we must all arm ourselves against those <insert inflammatory n-word here>".

:roll: Stupid racists.



Redd_Kross
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08 Aug 2021, 4:10 pm

Systemic racism means racism so ingrained that many people don't even see it, because they think what they experience (or do) from day-to-day is right, natural and normal.

It takes generations to sort that out. Putting a display up in a bookstore is just one step in a very long process of unlearning racist behaviour.

And yes, it isn't simply black vs. white. There's all sorts of discrimination. But finding other examples doesn't make your original one ok. That's like saying to someone with two broken arms, "You're fine. Look over there, that guy's having a heart attack". So what? I STILL HAVE TWO BROKEN ARMS. It's not a competition.

If you want to understand systemic racism, look at comparative figures for different groups that indicate the chances they've been given and the obstacles they've faced. And then think about how you'd go about correcting the results that are far from uniform.

Some measures include:

* access to education
* odds of reaching University
* educational qualifications
* average number of applications before getting an interview
* average number of interviews before getting a job
* job security / stability
(for example likelyhood of working shifts, part-time, zero hours, agency, multiple jobs)
* average income
* likelyhood of securing training / promotion
* odds of working internationally
* chances of becoming a Director / CEO
* odds of being self-employed
* housing security / stability
* chances of getting planning permission or a mortgage
* quality of diet, and starvation / malnutrition risk
* likelyhood of ill health
* access to healthcare, dentistry, opticians etc.
* divorce and single parent rates
* likelyhood of being a victim of crime
* likelyhood of being a criminal, gambler or addict
* likelyhood of imprisonment
* likelyhood of being questioned / arrested when innocent
* debt risk
* life expectancy
* overall quality of life

These are the figures that'll tell you what's really happening across society, when talking to individuals face to face simply won't.

"Why didn't she get that job?"
"Ahh, this chap had slightly more experience".
Did he really, though? Or is it because she was Asian and he was white?

It's hard to prove racism in those circumstances, because there's always an excuse and you can't prise your way into someone's head to know for sure if they're being truthful. But over time, if they always make the same decisions in the same circumstances and race is always the primary factor, then you'll know.

If lots of people are all doing that, all of the time, then your society is inherently racist. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the results speak for themselves.



Last edited by Redd_Kross on 08 Aug 2021, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Harry Haller
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08 Aug 2021, 4:17 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Systemic racism means racism so ingrained that many people don't even see it, because they think what they experience (or do) from day-to-day is right, natural and normal . . .

. . . Some measures include:

* access to education
* odds of reaching University
* educational qualifications
* average number of applications before getting an interview
* average number of interviews before getting a job
* job security / stability
(for example likelyhood of working shifts, part-time, zero hours, agency, multiple jobs)
* average income
* likelyhood of securing training / promotion
* odds of working internationally
* chances of becoming a Director / CEO
* odds of being self-employed
* housing security / stability
* chances of getting planning permission or a mortgage
* quality of diet, and starvation / malnutrition risk
* likelyhood of ill health
* access to healthcare, dentistry, opticians etc.
* divorce and single parent rates
* likelyhood of being a victim of crime
* likelyhood of being a criminal, gambler or addict
* likelyhood of imprisonment
* likelyhood of being questioned / arrested when innocent
* debt risk
* life expectancy
* overall quality of life

. . . If lots of people are all doing that, all of the time, then your society is inherently racist. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the results speak for themselves.

Useful and very thoughtful post.
A thinking-man's post.



vividgroovy
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09 Aug 2021, 4:50 am

hurtloam wrote:
Yes join the meeting, but shut up and listen.


An authoritarian principle.

hurtloam wrote:
I'm not sure there is much point asking us. We are a mostly white user base.


Assuming opinions, including ones that haven't been expressed yet, are probably invalid based solely on race.



IsabellaLinton
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09 Aug 2021, 5:43 am

hurtloam wrote:

Imagine I was trying to explain the racism I've experienced and some random dude was like, "nah, doesn't happen anymore and even if it does you're an outlier. Maybe you did something to trigger it. Most people don't experience that".



I agree.

Deniers, enablers, and apologists are what allowed this problem to become a crisis in the first place.

It would be like asking a group of men whether there is still sexism or sexual violence against women. They might know a few examples, they might discredit others. Likewise you can’t ask a group of women about sexism or sexual violence against men. I’ve tried that. They just stare blankly, blink a few times, and say it doesn’t exist.

We don’t see what we don’t experience. Most of us seem to be non-black people, although I have no way of confirming anyone’s identity. Our opinion about the lived experience of other people is speculative at best. I know enough about how the world works that I’m not naive. I don’t believe the mass marketed propaganda telling us everything is fine now, and that all the corporate / criminal bigots can go back to their desk jobs in good conscience.

People are jumping hoops right now to look PC. It’s a good start but I wonder when the other shoe will drop, and people will go back to their more overt racist ways?



cyberdad
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09 Aug 2021, 6:28 am

salad wrote:
So here's my dilemma. I am a member of a group called the Anti Racism Society and tomorrow is a meeting. The premise of this group is that systemic racism against blacks is still a major issue in America today. I joined this group after the events of the Floyd riots last year where I was convinced that anti-Black racism was a major epidemic in this country

But now im starting to actually question how pervasive and even valid this claim of anti-black racism is

After multiple organizations and corporations pledged openly to hire more black workers, Uber to give discounts to rides to black businesses, Google and all of social media devoting itself to the cause of black pride, bookstores across America like Barnes and Noble dedicating special sections just to books on black history and black topics, as well as every politician speaking in favor of black rights and even the most racist being too afraid to deviate too far from the narrative lest they get cancelled, I question just how alive this systemic racism against blacks really is.

I am in no way saying that everything I wrote above invalidates whatever claims of racism there is, nor am I saying it isn't a thing, but there is a part of me wondering if systemic racism against blacks is a boogeyman used to derive power for some race baiters and whether its a lot more hype than facts

Maybe im wrong. Im Palestinian, not African American, so im not as educated on matters of African American issues as I wish I was.

I just feel like given that the Native American community has a much higher suicide rate, much higher rate of being shot by the police, and overall worse statistics, it boggles my mind why the Zeitgist in 2020 was fighting anti-black racism all of a sudden, as if there were ulterior motives to the entire narrative of fighting systemic racism against blacks

Another thing that caused me some doubts in my former beliefs is that the media's over-reportage on crimes with a white perpetrator and black victim, even when the statistics show that most interracial crimes are black on white than white on black.

Id love to hear your opinions as I contemplate whether I should join tomorrow's meeting or not


Why are you asking white people this question? Go and ask a black person and see what answer you get.



cyberdad
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09 Aug 2021, 6:30 am

Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
[...] I dont dispute the lived experiences of individual African Americans who have experienced racism. What I am slightly skeptical of is the larger claim that modern American society is still objectively racist and systematically discriminatory towards African Americans
A common argument used by racists is to say, "What happens to one or two blacks does happen to all blacks."  Yet these are the same people who see a news report about a single incident of black-on-white violence and declare that "we must all arm ourselves against those <insert inflammatory n-word here>".

:roll: Stupid racists.


Usually Sky news



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2021, 7:55 am

I've been stopped and frisked. I've been followed around in stores because of the way I'm dressed.

While I was running, I was once accused of buying drugs from someone. I had to produce my work ID in order to not get arrested.

I know this sort of thing happens to "minorities" much more often than it happens to me. But I do believe I have an idea about how they feel having to kowtow to the cops.



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2021, 8:10 am

Black Nationalists and that ilk make the mistake of assuming that white people aren't PEOPLE, like they are. There is much more commonality between the races than what is usually supposed. They assume white people can't understand their struggles.

There are certain things which are peculiar to black people (in the USA)----however, their struggles are similar to the struggles of other oppressed people over the centuries.



Mr Reynholm
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09 Aug 2021, 2:45 pm

Thought experiment:
So if America did what no country in history has ever done before and became completely non-racist, What would that look like? What would our laws be? What type of government and society would we have? What would the citizenry be?