Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society

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salad
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07 Aug 2021, 9:16 pm

I ask because of the claim by anthropologists that every society on earth that has stood the test of time and prospered had to have a religion to act as a centripetal force to bind its members. Yuval Noah Harari makes such a claim in his books, especially "Sapiens" and "Homo Deus: The History of Tomorrow".

When we look at some of the atheist regimes of the 18th-20th and even 21st century they seemed to ultimately fail because the sudden nullification of religion from society created a moral vacuum that was replaced by rushed centralist state dogma that wasn't cohesive nor coherent nor organic enough to ultimately act as a stabilizing force in society: The Jacobin rule of France during the French Revolution, Soviet Russia, Maoist China, Nazi Germany, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, all had the same problem of trying to overthrow religion when religion was the bedrock of those societies

The question then becomes can atheism produce a long term viable and prosperous society that won't slip into madness and chaos like the other societies experimented with


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Fnord
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07 Aug 2021, 9:26 pm

salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society?

Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead.

Now, do you know of any atheistic society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?



Last edited by Fnord on 07 Aug 2021, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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07 Aug 2021, 9:27 pm

To the subject line.

Yes, atheists are by and large extremely rational people.
They would objectively assess life's circumstances, come to the conclusion that it is meaningless nonsense, and promptly not procreate, leaving the planet to the poor unfortunate creatures who will die miserably in the bush.

I think there is a logical flaw in my argument, in reference to a "Flourishing Society", however. :mrgreen:


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Pepe
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07 Aug 2021, 9:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society?

Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead.

Now, do you know of any society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?


*cough* Iran *cough* 8)


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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Fnord
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07 Aug 2021, 9:31 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society? Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead. Now, do you know of any atheistic society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?
Iran
Iran is not an atheistic society.

It is not exactly flourishing, either.



Last edited by Fnord on 07 Aug 2021, 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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07 Aug 2021, 9:34 pm

Fnord wrote:
Iran is not an atheistic society.


Correct.
It is a "non-atheistic state".
That was my point. 8)

Glad to see you read my post.
Don't be a stranger. :wink:


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


salad
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07 Aug 2021, 9:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society? Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead. Now, do you know of any atheistic society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?
Iran
Iran is not an atheistic society.

It is not exactly flourishing, either.


I really really feel bad for Iran. The land of Persia was once a thriving, multicultural and very sophisticated empire that was one of the most enlightened people in the East. Ever since the Arabs conquered and tore down Persia in the name of Islam, wiped out Zoroastrianism and sold its people as slaves, the Persians never regained their former glory and enlightened society

The average Iranian is very enlightened and open minded, but unfortunately thousands of years of invasions and imperialism from the Muslims and later on the West has screwed over one of the most enlightened societies on earth


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Pepe
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07 Aug 2021, 10:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society? Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead. Now, do you know of any atheistic society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?
Iran
Iran is not an atheistic society.

It is not exactly flourishing, either.


You added that after I posted.
I was referring to the corruption part of your post.
While Salad may not agree, in my view, you can't get much more corrupt than Iran, now that ISIS has been eliminated. 8)

And the reason Iran isn't flourishing has a lot to do with the world sanctions it is/has enduring/endured, as a result of being the centre of terrorist activities these days. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


IsabellaLinton
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07 Aug 2021, 10:54 pm

The world is in a state of spiritual malnourishment, having replaced religion with politics.


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Tim_Tex
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07 Aug 2021, 11:14 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Can atheism produce a viable and flourishing society?
I will answer your question with a question: Has atheism ever produced a viable and flourishing society? Cases in point: Communism has, at its core, the doctrine of the State as God, and no Communist state has survived in its purest form without becoming more thoroughly corrupt than any non-atheistic state.  Moreover, many Communist states have embraced Capitalism or Socialism instead. Now, do you know of any atheistic society outside of a social community within a larger culture that has viably flourished?
Iran
Iran is not an atheistic society.

It is not exactly flourishing, either.


You added that after I posted.
I was referring to the corruption part of your post.
While Salad may not agree, in my view, you can't get much more corrupt than Iran, now that ISIS has been eliminated. 8)

And the reason Iran isn't flourishing has a lot to do with the world sanctions it is/has enduring/endured, as a result of being the centre of terrorist activities these days. 8)


And their new president probably won’t make things easy. He’s Ahmadinajad on steroids.


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Fireblossom
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08 Aug 2021, 4:26 am

Before answering such a question, I would have to know what counts as a viable and flourishing society.



kraftiekortie
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08 Aug 2021, 6:06 am

Sure, this can theoretically happen. But it hasn’t, yet.

The atheists in question must believe in at least some morality derived from religion, though.



aghogday
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08 Aug 2021, 8:54 am



"Can Atheism Produce

A Viable And

Flourishing Society"...

'It's A Red, Blue', Green, Etc. 'Pill Choice'...

'Religion' is What Binds And Bonds

Only The Names of the 'Gods' Change

Whether it is Church or State, God's Still Reign

Whether it is

Capitalism Or
Communism;

Or NFL, NBA,

God's Still Reign

In Names Like Tom
Brady and Lebron James

As Manifestations of 'God Sport' Same...

"Atheism" Is Not The Religion of "Communism"

Or "Capitalism"; Obviously, Isms Comes After Religions...

Whether it is

Footballism

or Basketballism Or

Whatever Ism Folks Co-Create Next

For A Mix of Cooperation and Competition That Works or NOT...

Ignorance Is the Most Dangerous Religion In Toxic Cooperation And Toxic Competition;

Ignorancism Is the Religion That Hurts, Maims, Rapes, Maims Kills Most Ignorancism

Is The Religion

Practiced Most

In Trump Town

(F L O R iD A MeN)

USA WHere TRumP

Is the God of This

'Christian' Religion...

ALL UNVACCINATED Even in So-Called Holy

And Sacred Church UNMASKED IN A DEADLY

FRiGGiNG Pandemic For

All to See Yes Angerism

Is A Religion That May

Turn into Hatism Even
For Folks Who Practice

Lovism Too, Hehe;

Perhaps One Day 'Jesus'

Will Return By Story at Least;

The Version Not So Much That

Tortures and Kills Enemies Forever....

Yes

Evilism

S88KS too...

And There is Also

Toxic Lovism too

Buying New 'Playing

Cards' For the Star Ball Player 'Trump'
As MaNiFesTaTioN of Another 'Son of Man'...

People Get So Frigging Lost in Worshipping
Semantics and Syntax; They Lose the Essence of

What
Really
Is...

Love

Or NOT;

The Human Super Lovism Force
Power IS Greater When Not Abused...

Ah Yes, Cynicalism Of Lightism
Is A Popular Religion too...

And

Fearism

And Hatism

Is Basically Hellism

ReligionismS oN EartHiSms Withinisms;

Don't 'KNoWisM' About You Folks, Yet i Just

Drop the Isms

FRiEnDS

With Gravity

And Fly on Terrestrial

Land Dancing With No

Thoughts Are Required at All...

True, WalKinG on Waterism is Old
School Designed For

"Frankie Avalon

Beach Party" Surfisms...

BaSiCallY, ETeRNaLLY NoWiSM

i Do PartYisM ON EartH LoVinGisM WiTHiNisM...

Honestlyism it Takes More than a Couple of Wordisms
to See A Bigger Picturism...

Other than
that Just

Beism

'i Amism"

Oceanism Wholism Enoughism Completism
Waterism Wavism Samism Damism Differencism i AM

You Have to Appreciate
The Depth of 'The Rabbit

Holes to Appreciate

The Entirety

of the Human

Conditionism, 'Doc';

As Far As i Seeism Feelism
And Sensism Thisism Isism Whatism

Currently Going Downism Andism Coming Upism...

Always Startisms Seemingly Never EndismS Hehe...

Never Really

Finishisms

Alwayisms Returnisms

BeginnismS AGAiNisms...

-Bugs Bunny

In Shorterism Ismism

Storyism ALLisM

Ofism Existencism

Associated With Human is Religionism...




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PhosphorusDecree
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08 Aug 2021, 9:19 am

Well, the UK has managed not to collapse into anarchy despite being one of the least religeous countries in the world....


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Udinaas
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08 Aug 2021, 2:16 pm

Atheism is just a lack of something. It doesn't produce anything. Arguments like yours are circular because they blame everything bad done by atheistic regimes on atheism without doing the same for theistic regimes. To assume that the atrocities of atheistic regimes happened because of atheism but that the atrocities of theistic regimes are in spite of theism is to beg the question. Anti theism can lead to atrocities if imposed by the state but so can anti-atheism, and the majority of those regimes victims were not killed for being religious. It's not circular to blame atrocities explicitly carried out in the name of anti theism on anti-theism but it is circular to blame the Holodomor on atheism or anti-theism but not blame the Irish or Indian famines on Anglicanism. It means you have an a priori commitment to morality being dependent on religion that you cannot defend. Any state that imposes religion or irreligion on its subjects is going to be tyrannical but there is no evidence that organic secularization leads to societal decline.

It's also inaccurate to call Revolutionary France and Nazi Germany atheistic. Revolutionary France had a religion of Robespierre's devising called the Cult of the Supreme Being. The leaders of Nazi Germany had a mixed relationship with Christianity, with some wanting to co-opt it and others wanting to replace it with a new Nazi religion, but the regime publicly promoted its own Christian church and banned atheist organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany



Harry Haller
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08 Aug 2021, 2:19 pm

salad wrote:
I ask because of the claim by anthropologists that every society on earth that has stood the test of time and prospered had to have a religion to act as a centripetal force to bind its members.

This is because the convoy can move only as fast as the slowest ship.

It is also why statues (and apoplectic heartache when these come down.)

I would suggest no.
Even a modern society has the slow-witted -- and these need statues to worship.



Last edited by Harry Haller on 08 Aug 2021, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.