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Jakki
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22 Oct 2021, 3:38 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Jakki wrote:
as a non-sequiter here: please note that chinese investors have buying up huge tracts of farmland here in the USA . As have read in available reports on Chinas activities here in the US .
So the chinese maybe able to afford to implement that technology for farming, rather quickly.
At a greatly reduced cost to themselves . (Just offered as food for thought.)

Yup.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 4a3a3.html


This is the way economical warfare is waged i believe Please read the above link , the Chinese understand how to use our own system to disadvantage this country i feel .
Have copied the most disturbing part of this article .
This Patek woman is already in our congressional hallways influencing our newest Senators.
As if What the Chinese are doing is a good thing for this country . see below :

Jewell Patek, lobbyist for Smithfield Foods, said the Chinese-owned company does help Missouri by providing jobs for residents.

Plus, he said the firm sends a lot of meat overseas because of demand.

“We produce a lot more than we eat, a lot more than we consume,” Patek said.

Smithfield and other farm-related groups have been heavy contributors to Missouri Republicans.

Smithfield made $101,000 in campaign contributions in 2020, including $25,000 to the political action committee that supported Gov. Mike Parson, who runs a cattle company in Polk County.

(If we are sending meat overseas, then why are so many people here in food pantries and getting crappy pop tarts as the food they hand out) .

Sorry some of these issues just disturb me , particularily after what PePe wrote in another thread about China doing the Aussies in a bad way.


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funeralxempire
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22 Oct 2021, 3:43 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Image

People who hate working people making fair wages might not like this.


I have no problem with this whatsoever. It illustrates how the job and wage market should work. An employer needs work done and this is the market rate. The government isn't forcing the wage the labor market is.

Great example of the Invisible Hand in action.


The invisible hand doesn't usually lead to outcomes like this because as long as employers engage in a capital strike and refuse to offer a higher wage for a position like that they typically end up not having to blink first.

Power of various sorts can exert pressure on how the hand behaves, whether it's from the state and regulations, employers, workers or consumers. Generally speaking it's easier for employers to behave like cartels than it is for workers or consumers and this creates problems with how things work out in practice no matter how well they might appear to work in theory.

Strong unions could make a minimum wage unnecessary like in some European countries, but getting rid of a minimum wage or refusing to let it keep up with inflation is begging for widespread labour unrest and guess where what's on the horizon.

People are starting to understand how the value of their labour is misappropriated, they're not too happy about it and all of the ideological talking points about how they deserve it in the world won't change that.


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Axeman
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22 Oct 2021, 4:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Image

People who hate working people making fair wages might not like this.


I have no problem with this whatsoever. It illustrates how the job and wage market should work. An employer needs work done and this is the market rate. The government isn't forcing the wage the labor market is.

Great example of the Invisible Hand in action.


The invisible hand doesn't usually lead to outcomes like this because as long as employers engage in a capital strike and refuse to offer a higher wage for a position like that they typically end up not having to blink first.

Power of various sorts can exert pressure on how the hand behaves, whether it's from the state and regulations, employers, workers or consumers. Generally speaking it's easier for employers to behave like cartels than it is for workers or consumers and this creates problems with how things work out in practice no matter how well they might appear to work in theory.

Strong unions could make a minimum wage unnecessary like in some European countries, but getting rid of a minimum wage or refusing to let it keep up with inflation is begging for widespread labour unrest and guess where what's on the horizon.

People are starting to understand how the value of their labour is misappropriated, they're not too happy about it and all of the ideological talking points about how they deserve it in the world won't change that.


Your post actually proved what I was saying was right. Your response to me pointing this out is but but it doesn't work that way....

Did you think I would say something like those crappy dish washers don't deserve anything? Because that's certainly not the case. However I don't think that kind of work deserves the same level of payment as what someone like QC does...unless that is really the market value of said work. But folks like you it's worse than that. Forget dish washers, you want to give people who sit around with their thumbs up their butts all day a living wage for free.
.



funeralxempire
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22 Oct 2021, 5:18 pm

Should I pretend like a rare exception isn't a a rare exception? :scratch:

A broken clock is right twice a day but catching it during one of those moments isn't proof the clock works.


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Axeman
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22 Oct 2021, 5:30 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Should I pretend like a rare exception isn't a a rare exception? :scratch:

A broken clock is right twice a day but catching it during one of those moments isn't proof the clock works.


You presented it as a screw you to people who think as I do just because some dish washer is getting fifty grand. So what? I make more than four times that, and I have no problem with it so long as that is the market value of said work.

Your screw you falls flat because the story proved my ideology is right and yours wrong.



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22 Oct 2021, 5:36 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Should I pretend like a rare exception isn't a a rare exception? :scratch:

A broken clock is right twice a day but catching it during one of those moments isn't proof the clock works.


You presented it as a screw you to people who think as I do just because some dish washer is getting fifty grand. So what? I make more than four times that, and I have no problem with it so long as that is the market value of said work.

Your screw you falls flat because the story proved my ideology is right and yours wrong.


It's not really presented as a screw you, it's literally an example of what many people who oppose raising wages for working people are so afraid of. The fact that you're at least intelligent enough to understand it in context and not have an emotional reaction is to your credit, sadly the kneejerk reactions are still widespread.


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Axeman
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22 Oct 2021, 5:39 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Should I pretend like a rare exception isn't a a rare exception? :scratch:

A broken clock is right twice a day but catching it during one of those moments isn't proof the clock works.


You presented it as a screw you to people who think as I do just because some dish washer is getting fifty grand. So what? I make more than four times that, and I have no problem with it so long as that is the market value of said work.

Your screw you falls flat because the story proved my ideology is right and yours wrong.


It's not really presented as a screw you, it's literally an example of what many people who oppose raising wages for working people are so afraid of. The fact that you're at least intelligent enough to understand it in context and not have an emotional reaction is to your credit, sadly the kneejerk reactions are still widespread.


Why should they fear rising wages if the market demands it? This didn't come about by government edict with no regard to economic reality, this is economic reality.



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22 Oct 2021, 6:11 pm

Axeman wrote:
Why should they fear rising wages if the market demands it? This didn't come about by government edict with no regard to economic reality, this is economic reality.


muh prices!

For some reason a lot of people want their Social Security to be tied to inflation but they're upset by the notion of wages being treated the same way.


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22 Oct 2021, 6:51 pm

Well now someone is dead because of scab labor.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


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22 Oct 2021, 11:08 pm

the invisible hand more often than not screws the worker over while giving unfair advantage to the capitalist.



funeralxempire
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22 Oct 2021, 11:38 pm

auntblabby wrote:
the invisible hand more often than not screws the worker over while giving unfair advantage to the capitalist.


But when people notice this they're just lazy or jealous or some other insult. :?

Also, posters:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TkGKEjYgur


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Axeman
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23 Oct 2021, 8:17 am

funeralxempire wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the invisible hand more often than not screws the worker over while giving unfair advantage to the capitalist.


But when people notice this they're just lazy or jealous or some other insult. :?

Also, posters:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TkGKEjYgur


Btw the holiday season is actually essential to how the US retail economy works. Encouraging people to ignore it would only do harm to the common folk in the form of higher prices and closed retail locations.



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23 Oct 2021, 9:25 am

Axeman wrote:
Btw the holiday season is actually essential to how the US retail economy works. Encouraging people to ignore it would only do harm to the common folk in the form of higher prices and closed retail locations.
No wonder atheists are hated. Abolish Christmas, and uneducated people lacking job skills would never find employment.



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23 Oct 2021, 9:42 am

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Image

People who hate working people making fair wages might not like this.


I have no problem with this whatsoever. It illustrates how the job and wage market should work. An employer needs work done and this is the market rate. The government isn't forcing the wage the labor market is.

Great example of the Invisible Hand in action.


The invisible hand doesn't usually lead to outcomes like this because as long as employers engage in a capital strike and refuse to offer a higher wage for a position like that they typically end up not having to blink first.

Power of various sorts can exert pressure on how the hand behaves, whether it's from the state and regulations, employers, workers or consumers. Generally speaking it's easier for employers to behave like cartels than it is for workers or consumers and this creates problems with how things work out in practice no matter how well they might appear to work in theory.

Strong unions could make a minimum wage unnecessary like in some European countries, but getting rid of a minimum wage or refusing to let it keep up with inflation is begging for widespread labour unrest and guess where what's on the horizon.

People are starting to understand how the value of their labour is misappropriated, they're not too happy about it and all of the ideological talking points about how they deserve it in the world won't change that.


Your post actually proved what I was saying was right. Your response to me pointing this out is but but it doesn't work that way....

Did you think I would say something like those crappy dish washers don't deserve anything? Because that's certainly not the case. However I don't think that kind of work deserves the same level of payment as what someone like QC does...unless that is really the market value of said work. But folks like you it's worse than that. Forget dish washers, you want to give people who sit around with their thumbs up their butts all day a living wage for free.
.


I make more than that amount, but not much more. However I do get full benefits being a full time public servant. Our wages are set by a state budget and university administration. I am not tenure track, so it is basically a dead end job for advancement potential. I consider it only a stepping stone to something much better. My paycheck would be easily double that if I went into industry, as they need my instrumentation skills in the current job market. I am staying on to complete an important research project that I designed. It is going to be published soon and that will help me climb the ladder a bit.

My boss makes $130,000+/ year and barely works for his pay. Often he is “working from home”, which is code that he is not working. (Administrators at my school are way overpaid for the work that they do.) Unfortunately too many bad decisions are being made that affect the future of the university. From my perspective, the university is falling apart in more ways than one. Having the research paper published will be an excellent time to move on from my position, as my coworkers will finally realize what cards I have been holding in my hands all these years.

There are teachers in a worse position of than me at the university. We call them adjunct instructors. They are not full time and get paid no benefits. Each class that they teach is set at a certain rate. It is common for them to make under $20,000/year teaching this way. Usually they are retired teachers that are pulling in some extra $s for spending money or just for something to do. A few younger ones try to cobble together a living that way, but it does not pay well enough for the amount of work involved. They usually move on to a better paying job within a year of starting. Some will complain that they do not get paid enough, but that is the market rate set by the state.

As for the wages for being a dishwasher, what do you think a dishwasher should be paid in rural Kansas? Remember, the cost of living is much, much cheaper there than where someone is getting the $50,000 to do the same job.



The_Walrus
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27 Oct 2021, 4:59 am

funeralxempire wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
As for the impacts of raising minimum wage? Tough s**t, if your business relies on paying less than a living wage it doesn't have a viable business model and shouldn't be subsidized by underpaying the people who keep it running.

I mean, OK, if you're specifically trying to put businesses out of business then a minimum wage 25% higher than Argentina (adjusted for purchasing power parity - in nominal dollar terms it would be six times Argentina) makes sense. But I don't think the purpose of a minimum wage should be to close businesses. It should be to raise take-home pay. If you raise some people's pay, but reduce other people's to zero, it's great for the people who keep their jobs but really sucks for the people who lose theirs. And if you go to a $20 minimum wage next year, you'll cause a lot of places to cut jobs. Maybe they don't go out of business, but they get one person to do the work that was previously done by three.

If we're talking about raising the minimum wage by incremental amounts (say going up by 50c a year for the next ten years and then indexing to inflation) then sure, there's a case to be made that a business which can't deal with those increases is probably going to fail soon anyway. But $20 is not an incremental increase, it would take the US from middle-of-the-pack to the highest minimum wage in the world, by far.

According to MIT, most places in the US seem to have a living wage of <$15, and many <$13. Only the big cities have living wages approaching $20.

All this being said, if a number of large unions decided to get together and ballot for strikes simultaneously, they could probably force their employers to pay more, and that might force other employers to raise wages to keep up.


If they ask for $15 they'll be lucky to get $12. If they ask for $20 they can negotiate down to $15, or $17 or the best deal they can get.

But potentially even if some minimum wage positions are eliminated the people who's wages go up will have more money to spend which might lead to new job opportunities for people down the line.

This doesn’t make sense if we’re talking about a federal minimum wage, which is not negotiated between workers and employers, but rather set by the government in order to appease voters.

There are large parts of the US where $12 would be challenging. There are other parts, particularly cities, where you could go much further. But that is better served by targeting state and local government. Or alternatively, striking specifically at your place of work with the support of a union.

Modest increases are unlikely to have much impact upon employment. Mostly, workers will be asked to work harder and prices will go up a bit. But big jumps, like tripling the minimum wage to make it the highest in the world, would be chaotic and unpredictable. The minimum wage does have a stimulatory effect but it would be a big gamble that this would counteract other effects in the event of such a large rise. Moderate, steady rises are safer and more sustainable.


So what would you suggest for workers who don't currently have collective bargaining agreements to improve their compensation?

They have three options.

They can try to negotiate on their own. This is likely to be fruitful for those with skills where demand outstrips supply, but not for other workers.

They can seek alternative employment. Again, this is not likely to work for everyone.

They can form a Union, attempt to negotiate collectively, and then strike if negotiations are unsuccessful.

Forming a Union is necessary for a strike to be successful as a strike requires resources. A general strike is not likely to succeed because there is no strike fund, and because the impact is diluted.

Of course, there is also the political solution, but I have made it clear why I don’t think political solutions would work here.



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11 Nov 2021, 11:42 am

funeralxempire wrote:
https://octoberstrike.com/

There's discussion and planning of a general strike in the US seeking to pursue a 25% corporate tax rate (No loopholes), Free Healthcare for all, 12 weeks paid paternity and maternity leave, $20 minimum wage, 4 day work week and bans on single use and micro plastics, and limited emissions.

Do you believe there will be any significant participation? If so, how do you think it will be responded to?



Thought you might find this interesting.