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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 64
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Location: Long Island, New York

19 Jan 2022, 9:59 pm

QFT wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
QFT wrote:
I think Jews are hurting themselves more than anyone else by such commemorations. Especially Jewish men. It’s not very masculine to commemorate ones defeats. If Jews wanted to be proud they would be better off remembering King David rather than Anne Frank.

Both commemorating historic disasters and celebrating victories have their place. Hanukkah and Purim are holidays that celebrate victories.

You can't say "both Hannukah and Holocaust Remembrance has their place". You have to keep in mind: Hannukah is ancient holiday, Holocaust Remembrance is modern. And, as it happens, none of the ancient holidays are defeatist, yet almost every modern one is. The only ancient holiday that is "sad" is Yom Kippur. But even that holiday is not defeatist since it has nothing to do with victimhood it has to do with repentance. Yet almost all modern Jewish holidays *are* defeatist.

That shows that Jews changed their attitude from victorious (King David) to defeatist (Anne Frank). That change took place probably few generations after Jewish temple was distroyed in 70 AD, since that is when Jews were scattered abroad, to face persecution for the 2 millenia that followed. Now remember, Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. So, as a Christian, I know that the disraction of the Jewish temple was a punishment for the death of Jesus. And said punishment penetrated their very culture.

Then there are some theories that claim that antient Israelites are different from today's Jews. One theory says 2 southern tribes *are* Jews while 10 lost tribes are Europeans (and they even plotted which tribe corresponds to which European nation). And the other theory says that none of those 12 tribes were Jewish and instead Jews are Khazar conversts. I personally favor the former rather than the latter. Although I am not claiming to believe in any of those theories. They are just theories and as a theoretical physicist I like to theorize :) Who knows maybe all 12 tribes are Jews, thats also possible. I just don't know one way or the other.

But in either case. One of the two things must have happened. One is maybe its the same group of people that radically changed as a consequence of the punishment for crucifixion of Jesus. The other possibility is maybe it is simply two different groups of people. And then of course there could be in-between possibilities. Such as two sothern tribes were particularly responsible for killing Jesus and not the other northern tribes, etc.

But in any case, the point is that "what we regard" as ancient Jewish holidays (regardless of whether their actual authors belong to the ethnic group that is today regarded as Jews), those are drastically different from the modern Jewish holidays. What makes it even more interesting is that

12) A lot of today's Jews no longer observe Biblical Judaism. They eat pork and so forth.

13) A lot of today's non-Jews *do* start to keep Biblical Judaism. Good examples would be Seventh Day Adventists, United Church of God, Assembly of Yahweh and British Israelism

14) Messianic Jews who were born Jewish yet embraced Christ lost their right of return to the State of Israel, despite the fact that they keep kosher and keep biblical holidays. Yet secular Jews, who eat pork and so forth, still have their right of return to Israel.

So points 12, 13 and 14 show that today's Jews no longer define themselves based on faith in Judaism. Some other things, such as holocaust rememberance, are perhaps a bit closer (although I wouldn't say it would define them either). Rejection of Christ seems closer to their identity than embrace of Judaism -- at least as far as Right of Return is concerned as well as the other examples of reaction of fellow Jews. Jews are a lot more pissed at Messianic Jews (who for the most part keep kosher) than at secular Jews (who for the most part eat pork).

And that again goes back to persecution complex. The "religious reasons" to hate Christians is that deifying a person is considered idolatry based on their interpretation of Torah (they don't regard Messiah to be God). But then what about the following observations:

15) Hare Krishna would be considered idolatry too, yet Jews have a lot more problem when their fellow Jews convert to Christianity than they do when their fellow Jews convert to Hare Krishna.

16) Secular Jews who reject the existence of God altogether shouldn't, logically, care about idolatry. Yet they still have problems with Jews who believe in Jesus

17) There are some Christian sects that don't believe that Jesus is God. Jehovah Wittnesses is one. Christodelphans is the other. Yet Jews wouldn't want their fellow Jews to join those sects either. But, from Jewish standpoint, there is nothing wrong to believe in "wrong Messiah" as long as you don't deify him. For example, a lot of Jews believe that Rabbi Shneerson is the Messiah. And the other Jews that don't agree with them still accept them because they don't deify Shneerson. Now, how is the belief that Jesus is the Messiah any worse than the belief that Shneerson is the Messiah? I guess the Jews would say because Jesus is even less qualified for this, that, and that other reason. But still, if "being wrong about Messiah" isn't a sin, then who cares if someone picked supposedly less qualified Messiah such as Jesus? As long as they don't deify Jesus (which, again, Jehovah Wittnesses and Christodelphians don't do), there is no idolatry.

The point I am trying to make is that Jewish hatred towards Christianity is due to their persecution complex, particularly in light of point 16.

As a Messianic Jew, I keep Biblical holidays. I also keep dietary laws (I abstain from pork and sea food). But no, I don't observe holocaust remembrance day cause it has nothing to do with any of that. I have a lot more respect for Biblical Judaism than for modern Jewish culture. And of course I observe Biblical Judaism in the Name of Jesus, as the rest of the Messianic Jews do.

Although then again you have to be careful as to what part of modern Jewish culture you are looking at. I respect Jewish devotion to education, and obviously I am proud of Jewish scientists such as Einstein and Feynman. I just have more respect towards Einstein than towards Anne Frank. Yet Anne Frank is the one who is a lot more firmly associated with Jewishness, which kinda proves my point.

Like with everything else what and how we choose to remember things evolve. How should Jews to deal with our history, whitewash it?, ignore the holocaust?. Holocaust remembrance day is just that a remembrance day, it is not a holiday. As far as Anne Frank goes while how it ends is not forgotten but what is most talked about is her spirit under extraordinary bad circumstances. With that sprit they might have been caught and died earlier and that is a victory.

As mentioned earlier one purpose of remembering the Holocaust is prevention. It also is a reminder not to take anything for granted because prior to Hitler seizing power Jews in Germany were in a similar position as the Jews in America are now, leading figures in entertainment and business etc.

I am not advocating wallowing in the holocaust, and seeing every bad thing as a step towered the next holocaust. That is what is self defeating. Even with the deterioration in the last few years the diaspora in America is still by far the best ever.

So yes both have their place because that is life.

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