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Brictoria
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23 May 2022, 5:13 am

shlaifu wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
I wonder if this is an example of the subject matter discussed in the book:
Quote:
University sidelines sonnets as 'products of white western culture'

[...]

Shakespeare once wrote that nothing would overcome the “powerful rhyme” of his sonnets, but the writing may be on the wall for the poetic form.

Sonnets have been branded “products of white western culture” and sidelined on a creative writing course, university documents reveal.

Writing the traditional form employed by poets from Petrarch to Auden formed part of an assessment for the University of Salford's creative writing course, but “pre-established literary forms” were reviewed as part of a shakeup to “decolonise the curriculum”.

Sonnets have been sidelined as part of this “decolonising” work, according to internal documents which branded the verse form a product of “white western culture”.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/14/university-bans-sonnets-products-white-western-culture/


I googled and couldn't find any other source than the Telegraph, and then read the article.


Maybe consider trying different search terms next time... Here's another source I found doing a very simple search on google:
Quote:
University chiefs have sidelined sonnets from a creative writing course over concerns they are ‘products of white Western culture’.

The poetic form, notably used by Shakespeare, has fallen foul of efforts to ‘decolonise the curriculum’ at the University of Salford.

Following a drive to make the course more diverse, second-year students at the university will no longer have to write sonnets for their assessment.

Historian Dr Zareer Masani called the change ‘patronising’ and ‘outrageous’, telling The Sunday Telegraph: ‘It is content, not form, that counts.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10819139/University-cancels-sonnets-concerns-products-white-Western-culture.html

The Telegraph would naturally be the main source, given the article is based on interviews they conducted regarding the change.


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23 May 2022, 5:24 am

Let's put aside Dawkins. How about the Times of Israel praising the book!!

According to Jewish journalist Hannal Gal
The War on the West demonstrates the devastation caused by ignorance of facts. How anti Westernism has been able to demonize white people and belittle our culture’s greatest heroes by spreading false information.

well...that's an interesting Freudian slip....a jewish journalist claiming "whiteness" and western culture as "our culture" ??
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-war ... as-murray/

Another interesting interpretation of Murray's thinking -One example of many is the Greek philosopher Pythagoras whose teachings have influenced Aristotle and Plato, and whose discovery of ratios involved in music, forms the basis of harmony in Western music composition. The Greek genius’s Pythagorean theorem, possibly the most proven theorem in history, is taught in schools worldwide to this very day. Murray tells us how the Ontario curriculum, on a mission to weed out Eurocentric mathematical knowledges in favour of a de colonial approach – is to replace the genius Pythagorean Theorem with the non racist term ‘side length relationship for right triangles’.

So what did The fathers of modern western civilisation - Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle think of white men? Well lets ask Aristotle the father of polymath and western philosophy
Aristotle, Politics, Book 7, section 1327b
Let us now speak of what ought to be the citizens' natural character. Now this one might almost discern by looking at the famous cities of Greece and by observing how the whole inhabited world is divided up among the nations.2 The nations inhabiting the cold places and those of Europe are full of spirit but somewhat deficient in intelligence and skill, so that they continue comparatively free, but lacking in political organization and capacity to rule their neighbors. The peoples of Asia on the other hand are intelligent and skillful in temperament

Oops! did the father of western culture just describe Europeans as lacking skill and intelligence compared to the darker races of Asia :lol:

But of course even Plato attests that everything he learned came from Egypt....what??

Oh but yes...how is it that Plato studied in Egypt for 13 years. Pythagoras studied Philosophy, Geometry and Medicine in Egypt for 22 years. Thales, the first Greek philosopher studied in Egypt. Hippocrates studied Medicine in Egypt for 7 years.
But wait! wasn't hippocrates the father of western medicine. So where does the symbol of the flying staff with two serpents intertwined that doctors still swear the oath against come from? answer - The Egyptian god Thoth. God of learning and medicine

Image

So...does that means black nubians (the blackest people on the planet who also worshipped Thoth) learned medicine the same time as the fathers of western civilisation? well they appeared to understand antibiotics 2000 years before Fleming discovered penicillin.
https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles ... 003708.htm

Shucks! I agree 100% with Murray! the woketivists got it wrong, We should learn more about the fathers of western civilisation - learn about where did the Greeks learn math, science, medicine, architecture, philosophy and statesmanship. Let's dig deeper guys - stop studying all this woke crap


'



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23 May 2022, 5:58 am

shlaifu wrote:
This is just right-wing click-bait.

Without right-wing click-bait the WWW as we know it would cease to exist.


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23 May 2022, 6:17 am

shlaifu wrote:
That "maintenance" was used in reference to my earlier post in which described the temporary fix of redistributing wealth, if applied in regular intervals, as well... Maintenance of society, to be performed by people who outperform the mass of society by a large margin.
Make an annual award show like the oscars, where all the rich and beautiful mingle and televise it, and celebrate the person who contributed most money to the nation and its people, its infrastructure, its education system.
You could easily do that in Sweden, for example, where tax records are not secret, and anyone can enquire how much taxes the king has paid last year.

So the idea would be something like a more public and celebrated version of a Nobel prize, but obviously something that doesn't have to be a 'unique' achievement but something more like 'best philanthropy' in various categories? If so it's a good idea, and I believe things like this are already done at smaller scales just not televised or hyped to the degree they could be.

shlaifu wrote:
Oh, yeah, I see you weren't following me here, hence the confusion: if there is a way to mitigate the ill effects of performative inequality, not going down that path is akin to throwing your hands up and say "it's performative inequality, you can't fix that". Well, maybe not, but you can still take the measures to mitigate the effects it has on society. Performative inequality need not inevitably lead to a handful of people owning half of the world's wealth, and half of the world's people living in poverty. (Not absolute poverty as defined by the world economic forum or whoever. Colloquial poverty. I'm just trying to illustrate something here).

The real trick to making that happen is setting that up to where it's not a land-grab by a specific agency who pockets it for their own ends. We're in a position where it's difficult for anyone to trust anyone. A different way to put it might be - over a given threshold a certain amount of one's working capital goes into an escrow of sorts, where - if they're making wonderful gadgets, services, and the like - great! We're not chopping up their business, rather over a certain threshold what's beyond that threshold a certain percentage of becomes not-for-profit operation. Not a high enough percentage to stop people from creating wealth over that line but enough to where they get to wealth-manage it and the ROI goes back to the population in the area (perhaps first considering their economic effects in the area and mitigating those).


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23 May 2022, 7:18 pm

Brictoria wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
I wonder if this is an example of the subject matter discussed in the book:
Quote:
University sidelines sonnets as 'products of white western culture'

[...]

Shakespeare once wrote that nothing would overcome the “powerful rhyme” of his sonnets, but the writing may be on the wall for the poetic form.

Sonnets have been branded “products of white western culture” and sidelined on a creative writing course, university documents reveal.

Writing the traditional form employed by poets from Petrarch to Auden formed part of an assessment for the University of Salford's creative writing course, but “pre-established literary forms” were reviewed as part of a shakeup to “decolonise the curriculum”.

Sonnets have been sidelined as part of this “decolonising” work, according to internal documents which branded the verse form a product of “white western culture”.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/14/university-bans-sonnets-products-white-western-culture/


I googled and couldn't find any other source than the Telegraph, and then read the article.


Maybe consider trying different search terms next time... Here's another source I found doing a very simple search on google:
Quote:
University chiefs have sidelined sonnets from a creative writing course over concerns they are ‘products of white Western culture’.

The poetic form, notably used by Shakespeare, has fallen foul of efforts to ‘decolonise the curriculum’ at the University of Salford.

Following a drive to make the course more diverse, second-year students at the university will no longer have to write sonnets for their assessment.

Historian Dr Zareer Masani called the change ‘patronising’ and ‘outrageous’, telling The Sunday Telegraph: ‘It is content, not form, that counts.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10819139/University-cancels-sonnets-concerns-products-white-Western-culture.html

The Telegraph would naturally be the main source, given the article is based on interviews they conducted regarding the change.


Oh, I did find other sites *referencing* the Telegraph article.
Those are, by definition, not sources.

So a dailymail version of a telegraph article changes the fact that the course is called "writing poetry in the 21st centtury"?... And that course dared to drop a 17th century form......
.....


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shlaifu
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23 May 2022, 7:23 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
The real trick to making that happen is setting that up to where it's not a land-grab by a specific agency who pockets it for their own ends. We're in a position where it's difficult for anyone to trust anyone. A different way to put it might be - over a given threshold a certain amount of one's working capital goes into an escrow of sorts, where - if they're making wonderful gadgets, services, and the like - great! We're not chopping up their business, rather over a certain threshold what's beyond that threshold a certain percentage of becomes not-for-profit operation. Not a high enough percentage to stop people from creating wealth over that line but enough to where they get to wealth-manage it and the ROI goes back to the population in the area (perhaps first considering their economic effects in the area and mitigating those).


Sounds like a "maximum wage" to me ^-^
Well, max income. Yeah, why not.
I find it difficult to argue how someone with a net worth the size of the GDP of a small country is not a problem to a democratic society. I mean, obviously, the person can't consume that much wealth, but rather that person becomes a political entity beyond democratic control.
Btw. I'm also in favor of a minimum - and a maximum - pension.


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techstepgenr8tion
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23 May 2022, 7:57 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Sounds like a "maximum wage" to me ^-^
Well, max income. Yeah, why not.
I find it difficult to argue how someone with a net worth the size of the GDP of a small country is not a problem to a democratic society. I mean, obviously, the person can't consume that much wealth, but rather that person becomes a political entity beyond democratic control.
Btw. I'm also in favor of a minimum - and a maximum - pension.

It's not quite the same as a maximum income.

Most of the really big billionaires we know of have most of their money in the corporations they started and it's only when they've been really big for a while that they typically start withdrawing significant sums.

The idea is that if they're really industrious and really good at what they do you keep them doing what they do well and still incentivize them to do so but you start having a significant part of what they're doing go into a non-profit category. As a culture we'd have to figure out how best to handle that but it's a bit like the proceeds would go into something like philanthropic or charity organizations. If it sounds like a back-door way of saying 'tax' I think the idea is that they get a more hands-on role with those funds so they don't get to gripe about Washington DC burning it all on pork.


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23 May 2022, 8:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Hippocrates studied Medicine in Egypt for 7 years.
But wait! wasn't hippocrates the father of western medicine. So where does the symbol of the flying staff with two serpents intertwined that doctors still swear the oath against come from? answer - The Egyptian god Thoth. God of learning and medicine

'


The staff you're describing is a caduceus, the staff of Hermes/Mercury, patron saint of Commerce.
It's occasionally mistakenly used in the US, and I can't hide my amusement at the irony, thinking of the American medical system.

The staff symbolising the medical professions, the Rod of Asclepios, has one snake and no wings. The interpretations of the snake vary.


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techstepgenr8tion
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23 May 2022, 8:23 pm

shlaifu wrote:
The staff you're describing is a caduceus, the staff of Hermes/Mercury, patron saint of Commerce.
It's occasionally mistakenly used in the US, and I can't hide my amusement at the irony, thinking of the American medical system.

The staff symbolising the medical professions, the Rod of Asclepios, has one snake and no wings. The interpretations of the snake vary.

It's not completely divorced though.

Thoth is synchretically tied to Hermes. The Egyptian mythos draws up Thoth at least superficially as the lawyer of the heavens but he's a lot more, as the pseudepigrapha of Hermes Trismegistus is really alchemical and you could look at that tying into thing like ayurvedic medicine. The best joke in that is our medical system, aside from what you noted - being a place where money goes never to be seen again, it's that everything we do is coldly allopathic and there's some holism creeping back in but it's been really sterile and specialist for a long time.


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23 May 2022, 9:05 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
The staff you're describing is a caduceus, the staff of Hermes/Mercury, patron saint of Commerce.
It's occasionally mistakenly used in the US, and I can't hide my amusement at the irony, thinking of the American medical system.

The staff symbolising the medical professions, the Rod of Asclepios, has one snake and no wings. The interpretations of the snake vary.

It's not completely divorced though.

Thoth is synchretically tied to Hermes. The Egyptian mythos draws up Thoth at least superficially as the lawyer of the heavens but he's a lot more, as the pseudepigrapha of Hermes Trismegistus is really alchemical and you could look at that tying into thing like ayurvedic medicine. The best joke in that is our medical system, aside from what you noted - being a place where money goes never to be seen again, it's that everything we do is coldly allopathic and there's some holism creeping back in but it's been really sterile and specialist for a long time.


Whenever someone says holism, a memory pops up in my mind from a poster outside the medical university of the Indian army in Pune, Maharashtra, on which they offer 'holistic education'. Upon reading this, I thought: "what would a holistic medical education from the army look like? First, shoot a hole in someone, then sew it up?"

But as I understand the modern confusion between the symbols stems from the US army using it for their medics, and it spread from there. .... Yet another good pairing: army and commerce. Holistic ^-^

Sorry, I know nothing about alchemy.


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Brictoria
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23 May 2022, 9:19 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
I wonder if this is an example of the subject matter discussed in the book:
Quote:
University sidelines sonnets as 'products of white western culture'

[...]

Shakespeare once wrote that nothing would overcome the “powerful rhyme” of his sonnets, but the writing may be on the wall for the poetic form.

Sonnets have been branded “products of white western culture” and sidelined on a creative writing course, university documents reveal.

Writing the traditional form employed by poets from Petrarch to Auden formed part of an assessment for the University of Salford's creative writing course, but “pre-established literary forms” were reviewed as part of a shakeup to “decolonise the curriculum”.

Sonnets have been sidelined as part of this “decolonising” work, according to internal documents which branded the verse form a product of “white western culture”.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/14/university-bans-sonnets-products-white-western-culture/


I googled and couldn't find any other source than the Telegraph, and then read the article.


Maybe consider trying different search terms next time... Here's another source I found doing a very simple search on google:
Quote:
University chiefs have sidelined sonnets from a creative writing course over concerns they are ‘products of white Western culture’.

The poetic form, notably used by Shakespeare, has fallen foul of efforts to ‘decolonise the curriculum’ at the University of Salford.

Following a drive to make the course more diverse, second-year students at the university will no longer have to write sonnets for their assessment.

Historian Dr Zareer Masani called the change ‘patronising’ and ‘outrageous’, telling The Sunday Telegraph: ‘It is content, not form, that counts.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10819139/University-cancels-sonnets-concerns-products-white-Western-culture.html

The Telegraph would naturally be the main source, given the article is based on interviews they conducted regarding the change.


Oh, I did find other sites *referencing* the Telegraph article.
Those are, by definition, not sources.

So a dailymail version of a telegraph article changes the fact that the course is called "writing poetry in the 21st centtury"?... And that course dared to drop a 17th century form......
.....


I guess you failed to read my last line there:
Brictoria wrote:
The Telegraph would naturally be the main source, given the article is based on interviews they conducted regarding the change.

If something is based upon interviews conducted by a publication, then naturally there will only be one "source" (I'm surprised that this even requires explanation). Other media organisations could go and repeat the interviews, but with the information already available and unlikly to change, why duplicate efforts - After all, how many media sources simply quote "AP" or "Reuters", rather than sending their own reporters\staff to duplicate their efforts?

This would seem to be a topic on which the "right" may have more freedom to discuss than the "left", which may be why there is limited coverage:
* From the "right" it is a question of respecting traditions, with no obvious counter-argument that would alienate potential readers
* From the left, it becomes subject to the conflict between "respecting\upholding the arts" while at the same time "fighting against 'systemic racism'", making it more difficult to discuss, as there is a risk that in framing the discussion in terms of one of these areas they may alienate supporters\adherents of the alternative view.

As a side note: It's believed to be a 13th century (not 17th as you claimed) form whose use has been carried through to the present day ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet ) so there would be nothing out of place in its inclusion in a course on "writing poetry in the 21st century".


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23 May 2022, 9:28 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Sorry, I know nothing about alchemy.

It's the medicine connection between the caduceus and hospitals, or at least a bridge built by a Renaissance culture (and to some extent kept alive by Freemasonry) that's no longer there to connect the two.


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24 May 2022, 1:39 am

shlaifu wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Hippocrates studied Medicine in Egypt for 7 years.
But wait! wasn't hippocrates the father of western medicine. So where does the symbol of the flying staff with two serpents intertwined that doctors still swear the oath against come from? answer - The Egyptian god Thoth. God of learning and medicine

'


The staff you're describing is a caduceus, the staff of Hermes/Mercury, patron saint of Commerce.
It's occasionally mistakenly used in the US, and I can't hide my amusement at the irony, thinking of the American medical system.

The staff symbolising the medical professions, the Rod of Asclepios, has one snake and no wings. The interpretations of the snake vary.


While this is true, the version of hermes holding the staff you are referring to is known as Hermes Trismegistus a legendary Hellenistic figure that originated as a syncretic combination of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth.
This means the staff/serpent are from Thoth.

The association between the serpent and knowledge is thought to emanate from the hebrews time in Egypt and thus the serpent dwelled in the tree of knowledge and the allegory that is the old testament was the serpent representing Thoth offering knowledge and wisdom which when Adam bit the apple he was cast out of heaven by the god of the hebrews (yahweh) as punishment.

Further to this the serpent is to be found among the Maya as Kukulkan the bringer of knowledge around 500BC and the serpent or Naga is the holder of knowledge in south India (in sharp contrast to the north Indian vedic texts (and other Indo-European traditions) which cast the serpents/dragons as demons to be vanquished).



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24 May 2022, 5:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Hippocrates studied Medicine in Egypt for 7 years.
But wait! wasn't hippocrates the father of western medicine. So where does the symbol of the flying staff with two serpents intertwined that doctors still swear the oath against come from? answer - The Egyptian god Thoth. God of learning and medicine

'


The staff you're describing is a caduceus, the staff of Hermes/Mercury, patron saint of Commerce.
It's occasionally mistakenly used in the US, and I can't hide my amusement at the irony, thinking of the American medical system.

The staff symbolising the medical professions, the Rod of Asclepios, has one snake and no wings. The interpretations of the snake vary.


While this is true, the version of hermes holding the staff you are referring to is known as Hermes Trismegistus a legendary Hellenistic figure that originated as a syncretic combination of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth.
This means the staff/serpent are from Thoth.

The association between the serpent and knowledge is thought to emanate from the hebrews time in Egypt and thus the serpent dwelled in the tree of knowledge and the allegory that is the old testament was the serpent representing Thoth offering knowledge and wisdom which when Adam bit the apple he was cast out of heaven by the god of the hebrews (yahweh) as punishment.

Further to this the serpent is to be found among the Maya as Kukulkan the bringer of knowledge around 500BC and the serpent or Naga is the holder of knowledge in south India (in sharp contrast to the north Indian vedic texts (and other Indo-European traditions) which cast the serpents/dragons as demons to be vanquished).


Yeah... But the path of this sumbol is starting to get very foggy here, no?
I mean: Toth to Hermes to Alchemy to US military isn't exactly the straightest of lines, Mayans are a entirely different origin with no relation, and Indo-European isn't deeply culturally connected with Egypt, and only a little with Greece through Alexander the great, who, as far as I know, carried more Greek symbols to Asia than the other way round. The Hercules-statues in front of Buddhist Temples in Japan comes to mind.

Plus, there are other Greek symbols for wisdom and knowledge more well known today, the Owl of Athena for example.

What bugs me about these inherited symbol stories is that modern medical science has nothing to do with Egyptian, Greek, Ancient Indian medicine or Alchemy, except as the conceptual origin of .... Doing something to heal people. The Mayans had that, the Chinese had that, and so did the peopke of Axium, I presume.
The uniquely western invention is to drop the symbols and tradition and start cold, hard science with double blind studies with comparisons to placebos.
If you are desperetaly looking for a root of modern western society, I suggest Lucretius' De Rerum Natura.


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24 May 2022, 6:37 pm

So I did some digging and saw what you're talking about - ie. the Captain Frederick Reynolds story.

It does sound like it was selected then by a guy who mistook the symbols. The reason that mistake perhaps didn't get appealed immediately is that the caduceus isn't entirely wrong, it's just a less obvious choice.


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24 May 2022, 7:43 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So I did some digging and saw what you're talking about - ie. the Captain Frederick Reynolds story.

It does sound like it was selected then by a guy who mistook the symbols. The reason that mistake perhaps didn't get appealed immediately is that the caduceus isn't entirely wrong, it's just a less obvious choice.


I'd be willing to bet money on simply no one noticing the difference because most symbols from dead, ancient cultures are not well known and or correctly interpreted outside scholarly circles. And then someone noticed, but the uniforms were already produced, so it was roo expensive, but they also didn't want to look stupid, yadda yadda yadda.
Sadly, we can't travel back in time to find this out, so there's not much point on argueing, I guess


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