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ironpony
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22 Jun 2022, 10:57 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But if voting for a leader is not the best system, what is then? I mean having a 'King' or 'Queen', without any say on who is not the best way either, is it?


We aren’t against a voting system. We are against the Electoral College:

When citizens cast their ballots for president in the popular vote, they elect a slate of electors. Electors then cast the votes that decide who becomes president of the United States.

I’d prefer getting rid of the Electoral College and only vote directly for candidates instead.


Oh I see. That makes sense.



Twilightprincess
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22 Jun 2022, 10:59 pm

ironpony wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But if voting for a leader is not the best system, what is then? I mean having a 'King' or 'Queen', without any say on who is not the best way either, is it?


We aren’t against a voting system. We are against the Electoral College:

When citizens cast their ballots for president in the popular vote, they elect a slate of electors. Electors then cast the votes that decide who becomes president of the United States.

I’d prefer getting rid of the Electoral College and only vote directly for candidates instead.


Oh I see. That makes sense.


A major problem with it is that it permits the election of a candidate who does not win the most votes. Its winner-takes-all approach cancels the votes of the losing candidates in each state.


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ironpony
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22 Jun 2022, 11:02 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But if voting for a leader is not the best system, what is then? I mean having a 'King' or 'Queen', without any say on who is not the best way either, is it?


We aren’t against a voting system. We are against the Electoral College:

When citizens cast their ballots for president in the popular vote, they elect a slate of electors. Electors then cast the votes that decide who becomes president of the United States.

I’d prefer getting rid of the Electoral College and only vote directly for candidates instead.


Oh I see. That makes sense.


A major problem with it is that it permits the election of a candidate who does not win the most votes. Its winner-takes-all approach cancels the votes of the losing candidates in each state.


Oh sorry, but can you elaborate on what you mean by that? I am not familiar with the American voting system.



Twilightprincess
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22 Jun 2022, 11:11 pm

In other U.S. elections, candidates are elected directly by popular vote. But the president and vice president are not elected directly by citizens. Instead, they’re chosen by “electors” through a process called the Electoral College.

The process of using electors comes from the Constitution. It was a compromise between a popular vote by citizens and a vote in Congress.

The Electors

Each state gets as many electors as it has members of Congress (House and Senate). Including Washington, D.C.’s three electors, there are currently 538 electors in all.

Each state’s political parties choose their own slate of potential electors. Who is chosen to be an elector, how, and when varies by state.

How Does the Electoral College Process Work?

After you cast your ballot for president, your vote goes to a statewide tally. In 48 states and Washington, D.C., the winner gets all the electoral votes for that state. Maine and Nebraska assign their electors using a proportional system.

A candidate needs the vote of at least 270 electors—more than half of all electors—to win the presidential election.

https://www.usa.gov/election


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ironpony
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22 Jun 2022, 11:15 pm

Oh okay, I see. But don't most voters care about the party the person represents more than the person though?



Twilightprincess
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22 Jun 2022, 11:25 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, I see. But don't most voters care about the party the person represents more than the person though?


Yes and no. But a Presidential candidate could win the popular vote but still lose because of the way the Electoral College works. It’s a bit complicated to explain. If nearly half of a state’s population wanted a candidate or the party of a candidate, their vote would not count towards the overall vote because only the winner in a state is counted.


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ironpony
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22 Jun 2022, 11:41 pm

Oh I see. That's kind of similar to how it is in Canada, where I am as well.



ilovepalmtrees
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22 Jun 2022, 11:51 pm

Those are not remotely the same. While I don't approve of rioting, I do understand the years of racism and pent up anger that led to this. Timothy Loehmann never spent a day in jail for killing Tamir Rice. Daniel Pantaleo never received any consequences for killing Eric Garner for selling cigarettes. Dante Servin was never charged for killing Rekia Boyd. Brian Encinia and prison officials were not charged with Sandra Blands death. George Zimmerman walks free after killing 17 year old Trayvon Martin. Heck, gregory and Travis McMichael almost got away with murdering Ahmaud Arbery. So I think the anger in the black community is 100% justified.

Also, there were many peaceful Black Lives Matter protests and I was part of one in 2020. But white racists like to emphasize the riots.

Meanwhile, the January 6 rioters sought to overturn a democratically won presidential election. Of course Trump is like a little kid who can't accept he lost so he told people the election was fraudulent and he was the real winner. People falsely believed this and were encouraged by Trump to "take action" and enter the capitol buildings.



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23 Jun 2022, 12:14 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish we would get rid of the Electoral College.


Me too.

It’s stupid.

So you like California always deciding your elections? That's the whole point of the electoral college, to prevent that.


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Twilightprincess
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23 Jun 2022, 12:23 am

r00tb33r wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish we would get rid of the Electoral College.


Me too.

It’s stupid.

So you like California always deciding your elections? That's the whole point of the electoral college, to prevent that.


I want the result of an election to be what the majority of citizens in the country voted for. It makes sense for states with more citizens to make up a larger proportion of the overall vote.

California does have the biggest population, but Texas has a large population as well.

US States - Ranked by Population 2022
California (Population: 39,613,493)
Texas (Population: 29,730,311)
Florida (Population: 21,944,577)
New York (Population: 19,299,981)
Pennsylvania (Population: 12,804,123)
Illinois (Population: 12,569,321)
Ohio (Population: 11,714,618)
Georgia (Population: 10,830,007)
North Carolina (Population: 10,701,022)
Michigan (Population: 9,992,427)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/states


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23 Jun 2022, 12:36 am

ironpony wrote:
But as for a lot of Americans thinking the attempted coup on 1/6 was very bad, do most Americans only think that the attempted coup was bad because it was republicans doing it? If it was the other around and the republican party won the election, and democrats attempted a coup, the majority of Americans would have supported the attempted coup and would not think it was such a big bad deal, like they do when republicans commit it?

If the Democrats did it would probably be called a "mostly peaceful protest".


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r00tb33r
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23 Jun 2022, 2:03 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish we would get rid of the Electoral College.


Me too.

It’s stupid.

So you like California always deciding your elections? That's the whole point of the electoral college, to prevent that.


I want the result of an election to be what the majority of citizens in the country voted for. It makes sense for states with more citizens to make up a larger proportion of the overall vote.

California does have the biggest population, but Texas has a large population as well.

US States - Ranked by Population 2022
California (Population: 39,613,493)
Texas (Population: 29,730,311)
Florida (Population: 21,944,577)
New York (Population: 19,299,981)
Pennsylvania (Population: 12,804,123)
Illinois (Population: 12,569,321)
Ohio (Population: 11,714,618)
Georgia (Population: 10,830,007)
North Carolina (Population: 10,701,022)
Michigan (Population: 9,992,427)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/states

Politically, however, California is drastically different from the rest of the country. They're quite coocoo to the rest of us, the crazy laws, the crazy taxes, the crazy traffic, the urbanization. California just doesn't represent us, or things that are relevant to us.

So no, I don't think you have a good idea. When I was young and stupid I thought direct democracy (which is what you're proposing) was the way for the future. Now that I've grown up and learned what's what, no, I no longer think that's a good idea. I think the Founding Fathers were very wise in the way they designed the Electoral College.


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23 Jun 2022, 2:12 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
I
The cops were taking selfies with the MAGA people. .

Yes if the BLM/Antifa crowd tried the same stunt they would all be in the morgue


Tim_Tex wrote:
IAs far as I'm concerned, they're all like Derek Chauvin.

Well not all...maybe a fair proportion



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23 Jun 2022, 3:48 am

There are a lot of things I'd change, or at least seriously reconsider, regarding the US Constitution, given the opportunity.


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23 Jun 2022, 4:15 am

This is my take. So there's a respected theory that says that Republicans believe in authority. The fact that the rioters took selfies with police sort of emphasizes this, as police are instruments of authority. People with fundamentalist religious beliefs are usually Republican for this reason. Trump supporters (who do not represent all Republicans) have accepted Trump as their Boss, the role he played in his TV show The Apprentice. For that reason, they view anyone who doesn't support him as flouting authority, Mike Pence being a case in point. I don't personally think of the events of January 6 as a riot as this was a highly organized and targeted assault. I guess Putsch would be a better term although I don't know the formal definition, but there are strong parallels with the events in Munich in 1923.

A Trump victory would not have led to anything similar to what happened on January 6. There could have been demonstrations and had these gotten big enough they could have attracted the sort of people who throw stones and loot which means these demos would be characterized as riots by detractors.


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Twilightprincess
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23 Jun 2022, 9:35 am

r00tb33r wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish we would get rid of the Electoral College.


Me too.

It’s stupid.

So you like California always deciding your elections? That's the whole point of the electoral college, to prevent that.


I want the result of an election to be what the majority of citizens in the country voted for. It makes sense for states with more citizens to make up a larger proportion of the overall vote.

California does have the biggest population, but Texas has a large population as well.

US States - Ranked by Population 2022
California (Population: 39,613,493)
Texas (Population: 29,730,311)
Florida (Population: 21,944,577)
New York (Population: 19,299,981)
Pennsylvania (Population: 12,804,123)
Illinois (Population: 12,569,321)
Ohio (Population: 11,714,618)
Georgia (Population: 10,830,007)
North Carolina (Population: 10,701,022)
Michigan (Population: 9,992,427)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/states

Politically, however, California is drastically different from the rest of the country. They're quite coocoo to the rest of us, the crazy laws, the crazy taxes, the crazy traffic, the urbanization. California just doesn't represent us, or things that are relevant to us.

So no, I don't think you have a good idea. When I was young and stupid I thought direct democracy (which is what you're proposing) was the way for the future. Now that I've grown up and learned what's what, no, I no longer think that's a good idea. I think the Founding Fathers were very wise in the way they designed the Electoral College.


California is actually not crazy “to the rest of us.” It may be crazy to some but not to everyone. It’s not a different country at all. Politically, I identify with California much more than my home state. It also should be noted that it would not be as dominant as you are claiming.

It’s true that Republicans would not like it, but they still have Texas, although it’s not as red as it used to be (yay!) and many other states.

The Founding Fathers were smart but not perfect. The Constitution is not a sacred document. It’s understandable that it would not be 100% applicable for our day.

A government that is “for the people” should reflect what the majority of its people want whether or not you think that the people of specific regions and their values are “crazy.”


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