Teach Holocaust from the prospective of a German soldier?

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ASPartOfMe
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09 Jul 2022, 11:40 am

Ohio lawmaker draws backlash after suggesting schools should teach the Holocaust ‘from the perspective of a German soldier’

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Jewish lawmaker in Ohio is deriding legislation to restrict race education in the state’s schools as the “draconian Holocaust censorship bill” after one of the bill’s Republican sponsors suggested that it is appropriate to teach about the Holocaust from the perspective of the Nazis.

State Rep. Sarah Fowler Arthur, who co-sponsored the bill, made the comments when explaining to a local news station why she believes that “divisive concepts” should be taught from multiple points of view.

“Maybe you’re going to listen to the perspective of someone from Poland when they were undergoing similar displacement, or when they were being incorporated into the war and to some of these camps. Or maybe you’re listening to it from the perspective of a Jewish person that has gone through the tragedies that took place,” she said, describing how a hypothetical lesson that complies with the law could unfold. “And maybe you’ll listen to it from the perspective of a German soldier.”

Fowler Arthur also mischaracterized how many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and why they were murdered in her remarks, originally made to News 5 Cleveland in early March but not publicized by the station until Tuesday.

What we do not want is for someone to come in and say, ‘Well, obviously the German government was right in saying that the Aryan race is superior to all other races, and therefore that they were acting rightly when they murdered hundreds of thousands of people for having a different color of skin,'” she said.

Fowler Arthur’s comments, which she said were informed by “some audiobooks on the Holocaust” she had been listening to, are the latest in a series of comments that have implicated Holocaust education in a wave of Republican-led legislation aimed at dictating how race is taught in public schools. An educator in Texas and an Indiana lawmaker have apologized in recent months after suggesting that teachers should remain “impartial” or offer multiple perspectives while teaching about the Holocaust.

Her bill as written would prohibit state teachers from teaching “divisive concepts,” such as that “one nationality, color, ethnicity, race, or sex is inherently superior to another nationality, color, ethnicity, race, or sex,” in nearly identical wording to other state bills seeking to ban “critical race theory” — an academic and legal concept that has become a rallying cry for Republicans across the country.

Teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not teaching moral equivalence, teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not indoctrination, it is teaching history. If taught accurately it is a preventative measure. It teaches that Nazi propaganda had no basis in fact, it teaches how and under what circumstances a “civilized” , “advanced” country willingly become monsters.

We had those last two lessons pounded into us back in the 60s and 70s. As the Holocaust faded into history and as the soldiers who fought the Nazi’s die off we lessened the priority of teaching history particularly world history. We used “Nazi” to describe seemingly every idea and person we do not like degrading the term’s meaning, it is becoming just another meme. The result is we do not see, or see as hype the similarities between us and Nazi Germany.

Unlike some elements of critical race theory based “anti racism” education such as having students rank their white privilege which is indoctrination. Factual teaching of horrible ideas is not indoctrination. Replacing critical race theory based indoctrination with the whitewashed American history I was taught is indoctrination. Actually a lot of the anti CRT bills are designed to go beyond whitewashing to erasing, the nice innocent sounding language not withstanding.


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09 Jul 2022, 12:03 pm

I'm actually guilty of this. I've called people nazi in extreme cases when I believe they are actually dangerous to a particular section of society or are actually guilty of oppressing and marginalising people and stopping them from having a voice to express themselves openly and honestly in society and just generally want to take away people's rights.

I do this because I hate these types of people and I don't know how else to express my hatred of them other than to call them the worst possible thing I can think of.

Its not a word I would fling around willy nilly, pinning it on anyone who has an opinion different to mine though. I just use it on special occasions for the most insidious, damaging, destructive and dangerous people.

Whether this is right or wrong I can't make any apologies for it because the word c**t just doesn't seem to hold much weight anymore.


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ASPartOfMe
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09 Jul 2022, 2:32 pm

babybird wrote:
I'm actually guilty of this. I've called people nazi in extreme cases when I believe they are actually dangerous to a particular section of society or are actually guilty of oppressing and marginalising people and stopping them from having a voice to express themselves openly and honestly in society and just generally want to take away people's rights.

I do this because I hate these types of people and I don't know how else to express my hatred of them other than to call them the worst possible thing I can think of.

Its not a word I would fling around willy nilly, pinning it on anyone who has an opinion different to mine though. I just use it on special occasions for the most insidious, damaging, destructive and dangerous people.

Whether this is right or wrong I can't make any apologies for it because the word c**t just doesn't seem to hold much weight anymore.

People can be really bad and deadly as hell and not be a nazi. If a person thinks it is too bad Germany lost WWII that person is a Nazi. If a person had the power and would use that power to commit genocide and world conquest and believes in the tenents of Nazism that person is a Nazi. Otherwise that person may be an authoritarian, fascist, racist and bunch of other words WP software will star out.

* Correct English says modern people like that are neo-nazis. I just hate any caveats to the word Nazi.


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09 Jul 2022, 2:47 pm

Thank you ASpartOfMe I take your point.

I found this interesting

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nazis


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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09 Jul 2022, 3:18 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not teaching moral equivalence, teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not indoctrination, it is teaching history. If taught accurately it is a preventative measure. It teaches that Nazi propaganda had no basis in fact, it teaches how and under what circumstances a “civilized” , “advanced” country willingly become monsters.

We had those last two lessons pounded into us back in the 60s and 70s. As the Holocaust faded into history and as the soldiers who fought the Nazi’s die off we lessened the priority of teaching history particularly world history. We used “Nazi” to describe seemingly every idea and person we do not like degrading the term’s meaning, it is becoming just another meme. The result is we do not see, or see as hype the similarities between us and Nazi Germany.


Yep. The thing of, "Remember these historic details of this historic belief system and if you see another belief system which has those same or similar details it needs to be called out and stopped before harm is done to contemporary people."


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09 Jul 2022, 3:42 pm

Teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not teaching moral equivalence, teaching the perspective of the Nazis is not indoctrination, it is teaching history. If taught accurately it is a preventative measure. It teaches that Nazi propaganda had no basis in fact, it teaches how and under what circumstances a “civilized” , “advanced” country willingly become monsters.
*****************************************
If you present things the Nazis did to become the dominant party then . Critical thinkers might make direct
Comparisons to the methods being used on our own society . By analysis of current events in our own country
In order to manipulate and control public opinion . But obviously with a softer appearance in masking those same type of activities .
Media and War are probably the most dominant methods to control a society .

Germany : had its burning of the Reichstag ( congress) building just before WW2 to cause public opinion to be controlled and give NAZIs
A preferred political party role , by blaming certain groups of people .

USA ; had its 9/11 Conspiracy . Thereby giving us the excuse for activities in the Middle East. And specifically
Afghanistan,which, we gave up after doing what the Russians did there. And before we gave up , people were told we were rebuilding their country . Sure did not look like that when we were practically chased out of there.
(Just my humble opinion .) but we did burn burn at least one mosque in this country .



Recently noticed news in other parts of this country are even different on the East and West coast and Midwest
on Trump
And 20,000 national guard troops he requested on Jan 4th to be prepared at the Congressional buildings for Jan 6 th demonstration . Supposable these requests were acknowledged by the dept of the Army . But some politicos
Interfered with the request process .
Then a woman aide , claims she was told by secret service that trump tried to grab the steering wheel of the presidential limousine ( the beast) To get the driver to go to the demonstration at Congress . Only problem , is that is not physically possible ,I believe in the construction of the beast . ?????.
These are the things media proposes ,What we are suppose to believe now.
Do not misconstrue me as a Trump supporter,but I would like clarification, So I do not feel like People in Germany that dared to express different opinions


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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09 Jul 2022, 4:00 pm

Jakki wrote:
TSupposable these requests were acknowledged by the dept of the Army .


I'm not sure precisely how much the Department of the Army figures in to NG callups and chain of command.
A few references:

https://www.defense.gov/about/
Quote:
The Army National Guard and the Air National Guard are reserve components of their services and operate in part under state authority.


https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/unique ... onal-guard
Quote:
The Guard's organization is somewhat convoluted. It consists of two parts: the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard, which are both considered U.S. military reserve components but are distinct from the Army and Air Force reserves. The Guard is overseen at the federal level by the National Guard Bureau, the head of which is a four-star general and member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the military’s top advisory body.

(the above DoD link shows that)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/12406
Quote:
10 U.S. Code § 12406 - National Guard in Federal service: call
Whenever—
(1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States;

the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.


https://www.nationalguard.mil/about-the ... nal-guard/
Quote:
The Army National Guard is governor-responsive and


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09 Jul 2022, 4:18 pm

What I don't like is holocaust deniers.

The only way to counteract conspiracy theories that deny people their history in this way is to talk about the truth of it in schools.


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09 Jul 2022, 4:47 pm

babybird wrote:
What I don't like is holocaust deniers.
The only way to counteract conspiracy theories that deny people their history in this way is to talk about the truth of it in schools.

Agreed.
Holocaust deniers, flat earthers, and moon landing hoax believers, all seem to be thriving these days.


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09 Jul 2022, 5:23 pm

You can teach just about any perspective on anything as long as it is made clear how valid or invalid those perspectives are in part or in whole.

Teaching the German perspective is important bc it shows us how normal humans can rationalize doing inhuman things. It can be used to show people how to avoid falling into logical or moral fallacies which have catastrophic consequences. German soldiers and civilians were human beings. It makes their actions all the more appalling and unsettling. Millions of normal people believed this was okay--what makes you so sure you are immune to being convinced those things are okay too?


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09 Jul 2022, 8:23 pm

I'm glad the British won the war. The little respect that there is for people with disabilities would be non-existent if they didn't.


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09 Jul 2022, 8:55 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
You can teach just about any perspective on anything as long as it is made clear how valid or invalid those perspectives are in part or in whole.

Teaching the German perspective is important bc it shows us how normal humans can rationalize doing inhuman things. It can be used to show people how to avoid falling into logical or moral fallacies which have catastrophic consequences. German soldiers and civilians were human beings. It makes their actions all the more appalling and unsettling. Millions of normal people believed this was okay--what makes you so sure you are immune to being convinced those things are okay too?


I agree with this. The perspective of a fully indoctrinated Nazi is an interesting one to take, especially in a country that exhibits such poorly reflected nationalism, such an everyday casual interaction with it's own mythology regardless of historical accuracy, and such intense belief that indeed, America is blessed by God himself and its enemies are not merely political enemies, but enemies of the idea of American freedom.
Of course, there are important differences to the Nazi Regime, and the US is in no way as extreme. But pointing out some worrying parallels might be a good idea.
Learning that one man can think of himself as a freedom fighter while the rest of the world views him as posessed by evil itself is good.
Learning how people rationalize atrocities and tell themselves they're killing for a good cause, something bigger than themselves that's worth their own sacrifice and the suffering of others by their hand. Learning to look at actual actions, not the story people tell.

I don't assume that that's what a Republican politician would want, though: making American schoolchildren question their own upbringing by comparing it to a more extreme and inhumane version of some of its features.


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09 Jul 2022, 9:02 pm

Teaching the perspective of somebody who was a participant in war crimes is not about learning a different perspective (like claiming the Nazis love their children too (a different slant on Sting's famous song about the Russians during the cold war).

If people want to know about the mind of a German soldier then they should study the famous psychology experiments of Milgram, Asch or Zimbardo in the 1950s and 1960s. It revealed a human trait called "lethal obedience" which is now a type of personality trait (that curiously people who are ultra conservative or ultra right wing are very high in) where normal people can be conditioned to obey authority figures and without much prompting (like flicking a switch) to be compelled to act in an an aggressive manner toward innocent people because they are conditioned to believe somebody in authority has given them permission to act in that way,

A similar situation happens in mob psychology where the mob embolden the individual to act in a manner that is cruel and callous.

When you understand this then you understand why people who subscribe to ideologies that promote hate and social division need to be deprogrammed like members of a cult. It also explains why erstwhile "normal" people could be compelled to chant "lynch Pelosi" and storm the Capitol building back on Jan 6 2020.



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09 Jul 2022, 10:44 pm

Those agreeing with and expanding on my points should understand it was meant as a criticism of cancel culture be it "conservative" or "woke".


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09 Jul 2022, 10:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:
If people want to know about the mind of a German soldier then they should study the famous psychology experiments of Milgram, Asch or Zimbardo in the 1950s and 1960s.

Did the German soldiers they experimented on allow it voluntarily or were they coerced in to participating in those experiments?


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10 Jul 2022, 1:04 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If people want to know about the mind of a German soldier then they should study the famous psychology experiments of Milgram, Asch or Zimbardo in the 1950s and 1960s.

Did the German soldiers they experimented on allow it voluntarily or were they coerced in to participating in those experiments?


Milgram, Asch and Zimbardo all used white American males in their study to make inferences on how German soldiers would behave when asked to follow orders.