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TenMinutes
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13 Aug 2022, 1:37 pm

I'm seeing told-you-so memes from Clintonistas. Here's my hot take:

Had Clinton been charged with having top secret and SAP info on her private server, we'd be two terms into a Bernie Sanders administration, the supreme court would have a moderate liberal majority, and Roe v Wade would still be intact.



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13 Aug 2022, 2:01 pm

Sanders would probably have been destroyed by Trump in 2016, and if he had won, would certainly have struggled in 2020. The Republicans would have kept Scalia’s seat open, and then done the same with Ginsburg’s seat - and the same for Kennedy’s, if he even retired.

Sanders in 2020 gets destroyed over COVID, lockdowns, etc. President Cruz nominates three Federalist Society justices with the support of Mitch McConnell and >55 Republican Senators. Sanders would also do even worse than Biden among Hispanic voters (particularly as he would probably be up against Cruz), and wouldn’t match Biden on turnout of black voters. He’d probably do better among exurban/non-college whites unless they too got spooked by the word “socialism”, which… well it’s America, isn’t it?



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13 Aug 2022, 3:23 pm

Sanders would have wiped the floor with Trump. He would have appealed to more moderates and swing voters, plus brought the Dems who couldn't vote for Hillary out in droves.


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13 Aug 2022, 5:16 pm

Here is my “hot take”: Had Clinton been caught in possession of top secret and SAP info on her private server, we would be two terms into a Donald Trump dictatorship, the supreme court would have been abolished, and Roe v Wade would be a dim and distant memory.

Now that Mr. Trump’s treasonous activities have been revealed, it may only be a matter of time before the question of his 2019 defeat becomes completely moot.


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13 Aug 2022, 6:23 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Sanders would have wiped the floor with Trump. He would have appealed to more moderates and swing voters, plus brought the Dems who couldn't vote for Hillary out in droves.


I'm not so sure, Sanders definitely appealed to many of the same people Trump did as an anti-establishment figure who might actually make real changes (I voted for him in the primary myself), but he's also essentially untested in a national campaign where every piece of dirt on him would have been dug up, and he lacks Trump's Teflon like ability to shrug off scandals that would sink other politicians. I think his performance in 2020 shows how this could have gone wrong, he felt stung by Hilary's attacks in 2016 and thus embraced a lot of the identity politics he'd previously eschewed (or at least pretended to, as his heart clearly wasn't in it) and otherwise moved himself into more conventional Democratic positions on issues like gun control, where he'd previously resisted the party. It's like he forgot that his appeal was that he wasn't like the other Democrats, a mistake also made by Trump himself to some extent.


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13 Aug 2022, 6:28 pm

I choose Trump over Clinton any day. I like Trump's stance on life better than Clinton. The American economy was also improving under Trump's presidency. Trump is also more honest and he gets to the point. Trump also gets things done.


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13 Aug 2022, 6:51 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Trump is also more honest and he gets to the point.


You know, a bunch of people are probably about to jump down your throat for calling Trump honest, but in a way that's true, he's so much less polished then most politicians that he's truthful in spite of himself. Every word he says might be a lie, but there is a real feeling of knowing what you're going to get with him, it's frankly quite bizarre.


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13 Aug 2022, 9:25 pm

Dox47 wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
Trump is also more honest and he gets to the point.


You know, a bunch of people are probably about to jump down your throat for calling Trump honest, but in a way that's true, he's so much less polished then most politicians that he's truthful in spite of himself. Every word he says might be a lie, but there is a real feeling of knowing what you're going to get with him, it's frankly quite bizarre.


I'd argue the same for Clinton - people knew what they were going to get, regardless of what the candidates were uttering.


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13 Aug 2022, 9:42 pm

shlaifu wrote:
I'd argue the same for Clinton - people knew what they were going to get, regardless of what the candidates were uttering.


Eh, Hilary was the embodiment of an establishment politician, highly polished and adept at mouthing the proper words and phrases, but incredibly fake. Trump, by contrast, lied about everything but came off as a real person, if that makes sense, the lying was just part of who he is, not something cooked up by a marketing campaign.


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14 Aug 2022, 1:39 am

Fnord wrote:
Here is my “hot take”: Had Clinton been caught in possession of top secret and SAP info on her private server...


Statement by FBI Director James B. Comey on the Investigation of Secretary Hillary Clinton’s Use of a Personal E-Mail System

For those who don't remember, or never knew...

There is a secure email system the state department is supposed to use. It was updated in 2008, and Clinton signed off as having received training, though there is no evidence she actually received training. For her four years as Secretary of State, she was supposed to use that system. In 2014-ish, a conservative organization asked to see those emails, in what is called a Freedom of Information Act request.

What's supposed to happen is someone collects the records, redacts that parts that can't be shown, and provides the balance. Every US citizen has a right to see this info. Even the skeezy conservative org that asked for them. So, a record search was done, and...

Zero records were found.

Zero.

In four years as Secretary of State, Clinton had apparently not sent or received any email. This is how we learned she was using a private email server. In the basement of her New York home.

As an aside, everyone who exchanged email with her had an opportunity to notice she was using a private email server. Every. Single. Time. It beggars belief that nobody noticed. Highly likely that multiple top-level people knew, including Obama.

Comey's statement explains, in as dismissive and polite terms as possible, that all her communication went through her basement server. All the sensitive stuff that was part of her job as head of the state department. It included confidential, secret, top secret and special access program material.

Furthermore, before she handed her emails over, she had her lawyers delete what they considered personal and non-work related. Her lawyers did not have clearance to see confidential, secret, top secret and special access program material, so we are told they didn't read the emails they deleted. Uhuh. Through various means that Comey mentions, they recovered some work-related emails that she didn't turn over, and he presumes there were others that were deleted and never recovered.



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14 Aug 2022, 1:55 am

Dox47 wrote:
Trump, by contrast, lied about everything but came off as a real person


That people believed the billionaire real estate magnate and TV star was anything other than an elite with a potty mouth beggars belief. Sanders would have mopped the floor with him. Sanders was the real populist, and had the media not smeared him and propagandized for Clinton, he'd have beat her. And certainly had she been indicted, he'd have beaten her. Clinton v Trump was the no win scenario. Sanders v Trump would have been real populist vs fake populist. Sanders would have knocked Trump down to size on what was supposedly driving his popularity: his anti-establishment creds. Or lack thereof.



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14 Aug 2022, 4:16 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
Trump also gets things done.


For instance...?



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14 Aug 2022, 10:04 am



Yawn, It Takes Balance to Get Anything Done That Lasts.

So Far A 'Best Possible Scenario' Has Played Out With A Whole

Lot of Harm And Injury Along The Way in Terms of Pandemic Deaths,
Hate Crimes, And The Such And Of Course What Those Who Worship the

Money God Most; Yes Of Course With Fear of Not Enough to Eat Living Pay-Check
to Pay-Check as Studies Show 50 Percent of Folks Do Making 50,000 to 100,000 Dollars
Even Reaching Upper Middle Class Living Pay-Check to Pay-Check at 40 Percent of Those Folks too...

Is it Any Surprise that the Have's Who Live Pay-Check to Pay-Check Spent Every Bit of Their Recovery
Money Pandemic Related; Well No, We LiVE iN A Capitalist World, Where Instant Gratification And Quick

Pill Fixes
is the Rule
More Than the
Exception as That
Also Comes in terms
of Distraction as Science
Shows Humans On Average
Have less than the attention Span
of A Gold Fish; Yes, Less than 3 Seconds...

Hmm, Even though Biden Has A Speech Impediment
He Struggles With His Entire Life, The Dude Had 40 Years
of Experience Understanding the Ups and Downs of What it takes

in Compromise to Get Anything Down in Grid-Lock of Power Attempting to Maintain Its Hold...

It's True, We've Lost 'Roe Versus Wade;' The Only Real Promise Other than Welfare For the Rich
That Trump Was Able to Do After He Left Office of Course Stacking the Supreme Court AS Such

With Catholics Who Make it No Secret in Church That their REAL Allegiance iS iN BRiNGING WHATEVER
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS IS GOD'S LAWS TO RULE EVERYONE FOREVeRMORENOW Establishing that Rule on Earth

As Yes This is REALLY What Conservative Means Sticking to Tradition And Continuing to make That Order the Rule.

However, Conservative Does Not Mean Lying And Cheating and Careless Control of Traditional Government

Secret Documents

Which of Course
Hillary Failed to
Do Without Enough
Conscientious Ways
of Being Conservative too...

Conservative or Liberal Leanings
Change According to Both Nature
And Nurture of The Environment Across the Lifespan;

It's Already Been Studied, Governments Become More Authoritarian
During Plagues and Pandemics As Such As No Duh, Some Folks Don't
Have the Discipline to Protect Human Life Without Even Stricter Rules to Push them

Along to Save Even Their Own Frigging Lives; Advantage to Conservative Leanings Yes

However It is NOT Conservative To Value Freedom Over Human Life; Indeed, There are
A Whole Lot of Conservative Folks Who Vote Democrat And a Whole Lot of Liberal Folks

Who Vote Republican at Least When the Actions Show Who They Really are in the Environment at Hand.

Ha!

Biden is More
Conservative than
Trump By Far; Trump

Is All for Trump and A Nightmare
Scenario for Any Leader With Almost
Zero Levels of Empathy Only With Selfish Desire for
Material Goods, Status, Power and Control of Others.

Hillary Was Hated By Many Folks In Her Own Party; And
Of Course Extremely Hated by the Other Party too; Sanders

Was Considered An Extreme Socialist Dude By the Other Party;

It's True That Paved the Way for a More Unified Republican Party

to Make Way For A Con Man to Rule the Oval Office And Truly Risk
Our Representative Democracy and All Civility From Going Down the Toilet Drain of Anarchy...

Now The Democrats Have the Wedge Issue of the Rights to Reproductive Freedoms and Women's
Health Care Stolen Away by the New Catholic Tradition Savers of the Supreme Court Against Public

Majority
Desires for
The Rules of the Land
of Yes 'We the People' As Whole...

A President Will Be Measured Most By The
Legacy They Leave to Make Life Better For Those
He Serves with Empathy and Compassion in Balance Best for All Who May Be Concerned...

My God We've Had a Pandemic, There is An Ongoing War Between Two Countries That Hold
Much of the World's Resources for Day to Day Subsistence And Energy Reserves; The Entire
World is Dealing With Inflation And Supply Issues as Expected in Years of 'Pestilence', Wars,
Potential Famine and More Death; Yet it's True in the United States, even though Bread is

Double of what
it was Before;

Yes, It's

At Least
Still Available
For Purchase and
Now Gas at $3.49 Cents
A Gallon in the Panhandle
Held by the Notorious Gaetz
in His District with of Course

(So God Damned Dirt Cheap
Cheap Compared to Other Countries)

DeSaTaNiS Doing the 'Normal' Republican
Rule according to the Traditional Values of
The Biggest Traditional Religion in the Land;

True that is What Conservatives Do, they Keep
the Glue of Tradition Together even if it Harms

the Marginalized Among Us as A Sacrifice Indeed for

'Their Sacred Cow;' Listen Folks, This Is Kind of a 'Complicated
Situation'; 'Lots of Strands' for Even this 'Old Duder to Keep in His Head' Hehe...

Yet i am Not one With Gold Fish Attention; And i am Not One Who Needs Instant
Gratification or Quick Fix Pills to Survive, Although i am Financially Independent

Cause i WAS EXTREMELY FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE FOR DECADES TO MY WIFE'S GREAT CHAGRIN

As It's What You Do When You Understand a Storm is Coming, You Set Your Anchor in Safe Harbors

(On the Autism Spectrum And On the Bi-Polar Spectrum This Indeed IS a Life Long Challenge for Real)

Until the Storm Passes

And Yes When my 'Ship
Came in' For Financial Independence
i Gave Most All the Control to my Wife as
There Was No Way She Would Spend it all

And Even if She Came Close, the Hammer
of my Fiscal Conservatism Would Come Again...

(She Lives Well on Her "Allowance" Now Sweet Little Angel For Real)

As True in Someways i Can and Will Be Very Liberal and

EXTEREMELY
CONSERVATIVE TOO...

And Meh, this is the way it is with Most Folks; It is Very
Narrow Thinking to Suggest that Humans Are 'Black and White'
Non-Changing Creatures As Change is the Only Real Constant in Life

And True Some Conservatives Don't Like Change and True Being Financially

Independent Tends to Allow One better to remove a stick up Their Butt Indeed ThiS way

So very Tight
So very Hard

to Let Loose
And Just Fly
with Wings that
Don't Worry about
Past or Future and this

IS A Real American Dream

Setting Our Wings Free Yet it's
Tricky as Instant Gratification and
Even Lottery Winners Go into Ruin
With Drug Abuse As such Just God Damned Dead

From Ignorance and Poverty of even Understanding THeir own Human Nature;

Biden Might Not Seem like the Sharpest Tool in the Shed for A Silver Tongued Devil;

However, 'the Dude' Has Enough Wisdom to Leave a Legacy of Accomplishments in

Less than a Calendar Year Since November of 2021, Hehe, 9 Months to Birth a Baby That include:

1. New Infrastructure for a Country Falling Apart at the Seams; Indeed, By Nature, Very Conservative For Real...

2. (True, Before This, an Emergency Bill Passed to Send Money to Everyone to Get Out of Dire Straights of Pandemic
Needs Yet of Course that went to the Have Nots and Never Have Enoughs too, And Both Groups, Yes, Spent the Money

Making Supply Side Issues a Real Headache; Yet You Do What Ya Have to Do to Help the Least Among Us to Survive.)

3. A Bill Passed For Chip Manufacturing in the United States; Both Rational And Economic Good News.

4. A Bill Passed to Help Veterans Who Are Sick Exposed to Toxic Chemicals in Foreign Wars.

5. And Finally, Almost A Miracle, Enough Cooperation to Pass A Bill to Remedy Climate Change Woes;
And Additionally Tax Credits For Folks Buying Energy Saving Cars, And Solar Panels, And the Such.

6. And Finally, Almost A Miracle, Enough Cooperation to Pass A Bill to Cap Drug Costs
for Medicare at 2,000 Dollars A Year and Negotiate Lower Drug Prices As Well FOR REAL.

7. And Finally, Almost A Miracle, YES! Enough Cooperation to Extend Health Care Subsidies
3 Years to Help 13 Million Folks Obtain Affordable Health Care for THeir Most Basic of Human Needs.

8. True, A Minimum Corporate Tax to Insure Rich Corporations That Pay Zero For Taxes, Pay 15 Percent
That Make Number 5, 6, and 7, A Reality to Both Lower Inflation Somewhat And Decrease the Deficit As Well.


Clinton And Sanders is A Moot Point Now; That Division Provided Trump in a Unified Republican Party, The Entrance
He Needed to Create Chaos and Potential Anarchy in the United States; All For His close to Zero Levels of Empathy
And Compassion For Others; All for Selfish Personal Gain for His Personal Empire of Life That Cold Freezer Way of

Love.

Listen, the Fact
Is We LiVE iN A Nation
of 'SPOiLeD' Brats, Used to
Using 40 Percent of Human
Resources on Earth With 4 Percent of the
Population Where the Rest of the World Wants
What We Have Yet THEY CAN'T HAVE IT AS THAT
WOULD TAKE 5 EARTHS TO PROVIDE THE RESOURCES TO DO IT.

Meanwhile, We Have Folks So Separated From the Nature of Reality
That Includes Flowers And Blue Skies who Believe Human Nature is so
God Damned Precious that We Should Live on A Planet We Are Not Evolved for

To Keep
'This Condition
of This Condition Going'...

It Ain't All Bad; It Ain't All Good;

Yet Let's Face Facts, Life is DarK and LiGHT,
Night And Day; Piss and Vinegar; With a Little Sugar

And Spice; Yep, Even i Love Spice So God Damned Much hehe...

Yet i'll Be

God Damned If the Flowers Are Not Blooming
Outside Even in God Damned Trump Town USA
Now in Gaetz And DeSaTaNiS Land too;

*"When the World is Running
Down, You Make the Best of
What is Still Around," Unless
A Human Is Just Addicted to

*('The Police,' Circa 1980)

Misery and Suffering as It's true
Some FOLKS ARE TECHNICALLY
AND MEDICALLY ADDICTED TO THE
BEHAVIORAL ADDICTION TO THE ADRENALINE
AND DOPAMINE THAT COMES FROM FEAR, ANGER, AND HATE...

Guess what that Means that there is a Willing and Ready Target Audience
For Whatever 'TRuMP' Comes Next; We Don't Need Heroes Without Empathy

As Indeed
They Make
the 'Best
Villains'
for Real

And Will Take
Away Every God
Damned Thing We Have for Themselves
IF We Let them Have their way as 'Minions'
in A Worst Kind of Pandemic oF All, Ignorance
That Harms, Rapes, and Maims, All of Nature Worst...

We Do Need Safe Harbors And Anchors in Storms..

We Do Need Sails to Explore Fair Winds and
Following Seas to Continue to Progress and Evolve...

Indeed Both Conservative (Tradition That Glues) And Liberal (Wings Free)

Are Required
to Both Survive
And Thrive yet

NO WE DON'T NEED
A REAL 'FATHER oF ALL
LIES' WITHOUT A GOD DAMNED 'SOUL'...

And to Be Clear That's Just A Metaphor as
We Need Both 'We the People' and 'Leaders'
With Will And Strength on A Foundation of
Loving Balance In Grace Fearless Enough to Truly

Love With Empathy and Compassion For Real;

Never the Less, the Empirical Facts Already Relate Biden's Administration

And Party Achieves this Legacy in Less than 12 Months of A Calendar Year

in One of the Worst Trials and Tribulations This Country Has Ever Faced;

It May take a While
For That to SinK iN
For 'SPOiLeD Brat

Americans;'

Let's Just Hope We
Don't Have to Lose Our
Representative Democracy
For 'Them' to 'ReMeMBeR'...

i've Faced Most Every Trial
And Tribulation Most Human
Beings Can't Even Imagine
Exists in Reality of DarK too..

And this is why i ReMeMBeR For Real Now...

There are So Many Soul/Life Hacks for Real that Come
From Experience and Wisdom For Real; So Very Many, Indeed

To Both Survive
And Thrive For
Real; Indeed This
Is How 'the Meek
And the Poor of Spirit'
REALLY DO LITERALLY AND
METAPHORICALLY INHERIT BOTH Out of Struggle For Yes

HEAVEN And the Kingdom oF iT on Earth For Real Within NOW;
And Sure With a little Giving, Sharing, Caring, and Healing With
Compassionate Understanding Cognitive Empathy With That Kind
of Human Intelligence

So Deep Within

Altruistically
Fully Humanly

After Coming
Out of the
DarK For
So Long
For So Long
Indeed aS WELL Being For Real..:)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw36ivnRHRQ



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ASPartOfMe
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14 Aug 2022, 10:17 am

Had Hillary been charged she would have dropped out of the race because her support was lukewarm to begin with. Sanders would have still finished second to an establishment candidate, probably Al Gore. Gore would have beaten Trump but it would have been close because Gore is a bland candidate, but not viscerally disliked like Hillary.
Trump would have not accepted the results and the insurrection would have happened on January 6, 2017. The Proud Boys and the like were set up by that point. Assuming the insurrection was unsuccessful(you can’t assume it would have played out like it did 4 years later) the objections to the certification would have failed despite a Republican Congress because the Republican party establishment that was not completely in Trump’s hands yet.

The next 4 years would been gridlock with a Republican Congress and a Democrat President. Republicans would gain more of an advantage in the 2018 mid terms. The Republican nominee in 2020 would have been Trump if he was not in jail. Gore would have lost in a landslide to a Republican not named Trump and still would have lost to Trump handily as he would have presided over 4 years of gridlock and the pandemic.

Gore would have “followed the science” when the pandemic hit but while not being obstructionist like Trump but still would have been too slow to react because
1. America had not seen anything like this since 1918. No way would America would have accepted mandates and lockdowns in February based on a handful of cases.
2. A Democrat president would have done what so many Democrat state and local officials did in those early days encourage people to go out especially to Asian businesses and restaurants in an effort to avoid stigmatizing Chinese-Americans
So instead of a million+ dead it might have been 600,000.

As far as the BLM protests and riots I am not sure but lean towards them happening the way they did. You would not have had the divider in chief but still would have had a combination videos of the horrific murder circulating and people who had been stuck at home for months.


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14 Aug 2022, 12:30 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Had Hillary been charged she would have dropped out of the race because her support was lukewarm to begin with. Sanders would have still finished second to an establishment candidate...


If Hillary had been indicted, it would have been in July 2016. Sanders was the only other candidate with delegates at that time. The Dem party would have had to pull some totally undemocratic BS to slot in someone who wasn't even in the race, and Trump would have won.



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14 Aug 2022, 1:44 pm

I feel like the most likely replacement in the event of a contested convention would probably have been a different former VP - Joe Biden.

We already know he’s more popular with Democrats than Sanders, and more popular with Americans than Trump. Of course 2016 was not 2020.