I'm starting to root for the next American Civil War

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roronoa79
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02 Oct 2022, 3:54 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Some Americans so sheltered and pampered they think war is something to welcome. What idiocy.
Pindar wrote:
γλυκύ δ᾽ἀπείρῳ πόλεμος.
πεπειραμένων δέ τις ταρβεῖ προσιόντα νιν καρδία περισσῶς.

"War is sweet to those who have no experience of it,
but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach."

Also lol the ridiculousness of thinking that a civil war would see Both Sides (tm) lose in favor of Americans who "haven't gone bonkers". Not sure if you're a moderate or centrist or libertarian or apolitical or whatever you call yourself to feel smug and superior to Both Sides (tm), but wishing for civil war so millions of people can die for your presumed vindication is moronic.

Also, how dense do you have to be to think that civil wars tend to favor moderates/centrists/whatever you think a non-bonkers American is? Civil wars almost always end with a more radical government taking power than the one that came before. Hope you like watching the political center get lined up and shot.



Blah blah f*****g blah

As if you know me so f*****g well. :roll:

I don't claim to :|, but what you've said here does not exactly reflect well on you.
I suppose I don't know if you're American, but even if you aren't a civil war here would have catastrophic political and economic consequences around the world. Hope your presumed vindication keeps your belly full when the world food supply chain breaks down, or keeps you warm at night when energy prices skyrocket.


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r00tb33r
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02 Oct 2022, 3:56 pm

I refuse to be civil. 8)


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DeathFlowerKing
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02 Oct 2022, 4:03 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Some Americans so sheltered and pampered they think war is something to welcome. What idiocy.
Pindar wrote:
γλυκύ δ᾽ἀπείρῳ πόλεμος.
πεπειραμένων δέ τις ταρβεῖ προσιόντα νιν καρδία περισσῶς.

"War is sweet to those who have no experience of it,
but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach."

Also lol the ridiculousness of thinking that a civil war would see Both Sides (tm) lose in favor of Americans who "haven't gone bonkers". Not sure if you're a moderate or centrist or libertarian or apolitical or whatever you call yourself to feel smug and superior to Both Sides (tm), but wishing for civil war so millions of people can die for your presumed vindication is moronic.

Also, how dense do you have to be to think that civil wars tend to favor moderates/centrists/whatever you think a non-bonkers American is? Civil wars almost always end with a more radical government taking power than the one that came before. Hope you like watching the political center get lined up and shot.



Blah blah f*****g blah

As if you know me so f*****g well. :roll:

I don't claim to :|, but what you've said here does not exactly reflect well on you.
I suppose I don't know if you're American, but even if you aren't a civil war here would have catastrophic political and economic consequences around the world. Hope your presumed vindication keeps your belly full when the world food supply chain breaks down, or keeps you warm at night when energy prices skyrocket.


I'll probably be dead before I have to worry about any of that stuff.

To be clear, and I know this sounds like a big contradiction on my part. I really don't actually want a war, but at this point I feel like my country has sunk so low I don't see how we can possibly dig our way out of this mess. It's going to be a lose/lose situation no matter what happens. :|



Mona Pereth
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03 Oct 2022, 9:30 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
To be clear, and I know this sounds like a big contradiction on my part. I really don't actually want a war, but at this point I feel like my country has sunk so low I don't see how we can possibly dig our way out of this mess. It's going to be a lose/lose situation no matter what happens. :|

One thing that might help a lot would be for various marginalized minority subcultures, such as the LGBTQ+ community, to get a whole lot better organized in the Bible Belt and in rural areas. This may be more feasible than it used to be, thanks to the Internet.


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DeathFlowerKing
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03 Oct 2022, 10:36 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
To be clear, and I know this sounds like a big contradiction on my part. I really don't actually want a war, but at this point I feel like my country has sunk so low I don't see how we can possibly dig our way out of this mess. It's going to be a lose/lose situation no matter what happens. :|

One thing that might help a lot would be for various marginalized minority subcultures, such as the LGBTQ+ community, to get a whole lot better organized in the Bible Belt and in rural areas. This may be more feasible than it used to be, thanks to the Internet.



I'm honestly not a big fan of the LGBTQ community despite being gay myself. I've tried to get involved with it through facebook and felt that I was either being bodyshamed for how I look or being surrounded by guys who just wanted to have sex with me. It made me uncomfortable. Plus when the BLM thing started it really bothered me to read on the news that cops were barred from attending Pride and that white homosexuals and transgenders were forced to pay reparations to the black community in order to attend.

I was always told that Pride was meant to be inclusive of everyone but apparently it's not.

And yeah I get it, I really overreacted making this stupid topic. But the dangerous stupidity of American politics is literally driving me insane. It's bad enough having both Autism AND a diagnosed mental illness but in a time like this...

Seeing my country on the path to becoming a crazy combination of fascism, oligarchy, and theocracy, perhaps even a puppet state for the CCP or the Kremlin (depending on who really wins out in the end)

It terrifies me to the point that I think total destruction is the only solution. Of course it's not a solution, but that'a been my mindset lately.

I hate all this. :|



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04 Oct 2022, 12:37 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I'm honestly not a big fan of the LGBTQ community despite being gay myself. I've tried to get involved with it through facebook and felt that I was either being bodyshamed for how I look or being surrounded by guys who just wanted to have sex with me. It made me uncomfortable.

Facebook is probably not the best avenue for meeting people online. If you have not done so already, try Meetup.com (for local in-person groups) or Discord (for online chat).

Also, I would suggest that you steer clear of generic social groups, in favor of groups that revolve around some specific theme or purpose that you agree with, at least for the most part. For example, a group of gay Pagans, or perhaps a support group for LGBTQ+ autistic people.

Or, if you do want something more purely social, but want to avoid body-shaming, it's my understanding that the gay male scene includes a variety of mini-subcultures for men with specific body types. (You're probably already aware of these, but, for anyone here who isn't, see, for example, gay tribes.) Have you tried seeking out the appropriate "tribe" as a way to cut down on body-shaming? If so, how did that work out for you?

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Plus when the BLM thing started it really bothered me to read on the news that cops were barred from attending Pride

Bothers me too, but it wouldn't be enough to keep me away from a Pride event if I otherwise strongly wanted to go to one.

(From the 1980's up to about 10 years ago, I used to attend Pride events almost every year. I'm bisexual and gender-nonconforming.)

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
and that white homosexuals and transgenders were forced to pay reparations to the black community in order to attend.

Was that the main Pride event or a Black Pride event, more specifically?

When I Googled "gay pride reparations," I found that this pertained only to a "Black Pride" event -- not the main Pride event.


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DeathFlowerKing
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04 Oct 2022, 7:21 am

Now that I think about it, the news I read about paying reparations to attend pride might have referred to a black pride event. Or it might have been me reading actual 'fake news' designed to discredit black people who were angry over the murder of George Floyd.

I often have a poor memory...

It could have been something I read in the days before I would actually check my news sources like I do now.



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06 Oct 2022, 10:40 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
And I hope neither side wins. I hope the right and left utterly destroy each other and then maybe we'll get a few Americans who have not gone completely bonkers to pick up the pieces and rebuild this country.

Two nicely-dressed people knock on your door. You answer.

One of them says, "Good morning! May we come in? We'd like to talk to you about Ayn Rand and Objectivism."



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06 Oct 2022, 12:46 pm

We're really in an unusual place right now.

The sense I'm getting is that the energy crisis in Europe is actually forcing everyone to lean more on the US for support, as Jerome Powell continues to raise the interest rates foreign investment in US bonds is going to increase, and thus a lot of the sort of things Peter Zeihan talks about with the US cleaning house economically seem like they're poised to come true.

On one hand that might mean that a lot of political tension in the US gets diffused a bit, but it gets diffused by the comparative misery of Europe (almost analogous to the post WWII situation).

I'd also agree with the idea that civil war is a batisht crazy idea, in some sense it's been happening in cyberspace at the ideological level but we really need to knock it off and perhaps sort out what it is we're doing with social media or just please - find some way to fuel the economy with online activity that doesn't require distorting public reality to the degree that everyone's at each other's throats thanks to Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok engagement algorithms or Google search customizations. If greed is a feature rather than a bug in capitalism I'd have to at least hope that going concern is a feature as well, OTOH sadly any sense of longer term going concern (ie. no functioning nation state - no functioning business environment) just hasn't shown up.


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06 Oct 2022, 10:11 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
We're really in an unusual place right now.

The sense I'm getting is that the energy crisis in Europe is actually forcing everyone to lean more on the US for support, as Jerome Powell continues to raise the interest rates foreign investment in US bonds is going to increase, and thus a lot of the sort of things Peter Zeihan talks about with the US cleaning house economically seem like they're poised to come true.

On one hand that might mean that a lot of political tension in the US gets diffused a bit, but it gets diffused by the comparative misery of Europe (almost analogous to the post WWII situation).

I'd also agree with the idea that civil war is a batisht crazy idea, in some sense it's been happening in cyberspace at the ideological level but we really need to knock it off and perhaps sort out what it is we're doing with social media or just please - find some way to fuel the economy with online activity that doesn't require distorting public reality to the degree that everyone's at each other's throats thanks to Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok engagement algorithms or Google search customizations. If greed is a feature rather than a bug in capitalism I'd have to at least hope that going concern is a feature as well, OTOH sadly any sense of longer term going concern (ie. no functioning nation state - no functioning business environment) just hasn't shown up.

I don’t think a Civil War is all that crazy an idea, though. The OP really caught my attention on this one.

I’m not gung-ho about having another civil war. I’m not in favor of humans destroying each other. But I do think it very well could easily come to that. Republicans and Democrats are opposing sides of the same coin: limiting/controlling freedom beyond what is reasonable, only differing on what freedoms to limit. The main purpose of either party is to simply oppose the other. Whatever one says, the other repudiates. I don’t see any authentic thought process guiding it.

The power base of each party is where you want to be concerned. For politicians, it’s just a game they play. It’s not a game for everyone else. So I could defo see different groups of people fighting it out.



techstepgenr8tion
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06 Oct 2022, 10:26 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I don’t think a Civil War is all that crazy an idea, though. The OP really caught my attention on this one.

I’m not gung-ho about having another civil war. I’m not in favor of humans destroying each other. But I do think it very well could easily come to that. Republicans and Democrats are opposing sides of the same coin: limiting/controlling freedom beyond what is reasonable, only differing on what freedoms to limit. The main purpose of either party is to simply oppose the other. Whatever one says, the other repudiates. I don’t see any authentic thought process guiding it.

The power base of each party is where you want to be concerned. For politicians, it’s just a game they play. It’s not a game for everyone else. So I could defo see different groups of people fighting it out.


I'm less convinced for one reason - for the Russia and Ukraine thing, or the fear of China both in terms of Taiwan as well as the possibility of their economic collapse and what that would do to everything else, the impact the current conflicts are having on global food supply, how the energy situation in Europe over the winter may be something we haven't seen in at least a few generation, I think we're not only up against significant external threat but we're also stuck marveling at how deeply it's all tied into international trade and finance and just how arcane an endeavor it is to go to war with another country and deal with the diplomacy of both neighbors and world powers. Especially with nuclear weapons being the close-out and setting an upper-bound on what aggression can take place the rules are much tighter.

I feel like that sort of thing starts grabbing people's attention a bit more than who their neighbor voted for. It's not that the US government or politicians are all of a suddenly that great, it's just that we're on the same boat together and the waters are looking choppy. I also think most people of any political persuasion would pass on Putin's style of government and would gladly put up with each other over that.


Also to clarify - when I said above that it was a 'crazy idea' - I meant more the idea that we'd deliberately choose it, not debating whether network effects could get bad enough to seed that kind of event - I don't think it's crazy, I'm just less convinced right now for the above reasons.


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07 Oct 2022, 5:24 am

Oh...there is nothing crazy about it.

The first time we did it ...two percent of our population was killed (equivalent to six million Americans dying in a war today). One half of the country was in ruins. And the other half was changed beyond recognition.

And we... had the wild frontier with untapped resources to make it easy to recover.

We dont have the frontier anymore. AND we are now a nation with nuclear weapons. AND...like Ukraine we have nuclear power plants that could become "collatoral damage" even if neither side uses nukes.



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07 Oct 2022, 7:13 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
And I hope neither side wins. I hope the right and left utterly destroy each other and then maybe we'll get a few Americans who have not gone completely bonkers to pick up the pieces and rebuild this country.


Sounds like Britain- on the verge of civil war. Our government is insane, have you read the things they are saying? They want to carve up Britain into privately owned Freeports, Charter Cities and Investment Zones which will all have their own laws and government different to all the other ones. WTF. And that is one of their more sensible ideas.


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07 Oct 2022, 12:07 pm

KitLily wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
And I hope neither side wins. I hope the right and left utterly destroy each other and then maybe we'll get a few Americans who have not gone completely bonkers to pick up the pieces and rebuild this country.


Sounds like Britain- on the verge of civil war. Our government is insane, have you read the things they are saying? They want to carve up Britain into privately owned Freeports, Charter Cities and Investment Zones which will all have their own laws and government different to all the other ones. WTF. And that is one of their more sensible ideas.


Kind of ironic that the people that came up with a colonial system of government to govern so much of the world can't manage to govern one teeny tiny island anymore..


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07 Oct 2022, 12:14 pm

KitLily wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
And I hope neither side wins. I hope the right and left utterly destroy each other and then maybe we'll get a few Americans who have not gone completely bonkers to pick up the pieces and rebuild this country.


Sounds like Britain- on the verge of civil war. Our government is insane, have you read the things they are saying? They want to carve up Britain into privately owned Freeports, Charter Cities and Investment Zones which will all have their own laws and government different to all the other ones. WTF. And that is one of their more sensible ideas.


So...Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, will break away from the UK?

Then England itself will break into war between these cities with differing hare brained experimental ideologies?

Are they gonna bring back "Round Heads, and Cavaliers" too?



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07 Oct 2022, 5:10 pm

If the US collapsing means a collapse for the rest of the world consider me a cheerleader for it.