The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

Page 7 of 21 [ 335 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 21  Next

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 33,762
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

24 Nov 2022, 3:10 pm

Nades wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Worst part is the second bomb was dropped expirimenetally to see what would happen. Even dropping the first one was extreme but people felt it was nessisary...dropping the second one was not even seen as necessary but they still dropped it. Idk I feel it is one of the most disgusting things this country has ever done....I just don't feel it is right to nuke civilians ever.


The cost analysis of using nuclear bombs is no different to carpet bombing of Dresden. The Japanese imperial forces would have fought to the death (according to Bushido code) and cost the Americans perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives.

There may be several million Americans alive today who might not exist had emperor Hirohito not been forced to surrender. As with the Germans, the Japanese experienced karma for all the atrocities they committed. Not a single Asian who lived under Japanese occupation would have shed a tear for the japanese civilians who died in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Same with the millions of survivors of German occupation would have never shed a single tear for the German civilians who suffered under Russian occupation.

It's called natural law/order of things. Karma.

And before certain people try and report me to the mods...no I don't condone the deaths of German or Japanese civilians but I do understand the sentiment toward them getting their comeuppance.


Nukes were fair I think. Like you said comeuppance. Being civilians doesn't automatically absolve them of culpability.

Civilians are acceptable targets depending on how they behave and their beliefs. (Yes, I actually said beliefs). Overall japanese sentiment of the public at the time of WW2 was disgusting. The atrocities in China and the whole "Meh" from the Japanese public was bad enough.

Rape of Berlin? I dunno. It's just a city compared to an entire country. I think a lot of Germans were against the Nazi government too.


I get that it was nessisary to drop the nuke, but still seems morally wrong...but sometimes in war morally wrong decisions have to be made. But was it necessary to drop the second one? that I am not so sure about.

And of course many Germans where against the Nazi government, quite a few hid jews in their homes, which was extremely risky.


_________________
We won't go back.


Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1932
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,994
Location: wales

24 Nov 2022, 3:44 pm

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
Rape of Berlin? I dunno. It's just a city compared to an entire country.
It wasn't just Berlin. German women were considered free game everywhere the Red Army reached.
The events described in the quote from The Gulag Archipelago took place when the army was around Brodnica.

Soviet army rapes and looting were infamous around other ethnicities, too (stories from both my and my husband's family confirm...), but German women had it the worst.


I think too many factors were involved during WW2 with the Red army. It's safe to say the typical Red army conscript hardly had a great time too. I'm sure most of them were pressed into being cannon fodder and no doubt had a serious grudge against the German public as a direct result.

Morals quickly fall to the wayside if unwilling people are pitted against an evil regime by another evil regime. It's a breeding ground for indifference and immorality spawned by utter exasperation for the situation they find themselves in.



Nades
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1932
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,994
Location: wales

24 Nov 2022, 3:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Nades wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Worst part is the second bomb was dropped expirimenetally to see what would happen. Even dropping the first one was extreme but people felt it was nessisary...dropping the second one was not even seen as necessary but they still dropped it. Idk I feel it is one of the most disgusting things this country has ever done....I just don't feel it is right to nuke civilians ever.


The cost analysis of using nuclear bombs is no different to carpet bombing of Dresden. The Japanese imperial forces would have fought to the death (according to Bushido code) and cost the Americans perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives.

There may be several million Americans alive today who might not exist had emperor Hirohito not been forced to surrender. As with the Germans, the Japanese experienced karma for all the atrocities they committed. Not a single Asian who lived under Japanese occupation would have shed a tear for the japanese civilians who died in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Same with the millions of survivors of German occupation would have never shed a single tear for the German civilians who suffered under Russian occupation.

It's called natural law/order of things. Karma.

And before certain people try and report me to the mods...no I don't condone the deaths of German or Japanese civilians but I do understand the sentiment toward them getting their comeuppance.


Nukes were fair I think. Like you said comeuppance. Being civilians doesn't automatically absolve them of culpability.

Civilians are acceptable targets depending on how they behave and their beliefs. (Yes, I actually said beliefs). Overall japanese sentiment of the public at the time of WW2 was disgusting. The atrocities in China and the whole "Meh" from the Japanese public was bad enough.

Rape of Berlin? I dunno. It's just a city compared to an entire country. I think a lot of Germans were against the Nazi government too.


I get that it was nessisary to drop the nuke, but still seems morally wrong...but sometimes in war morally wrong decisions have to be made. But was it necessary to drop the second one? that I am not so sure about.

And of course many Germans where against the Nazi government, quite a few hid jews in their homes, which was extremely risky.


I think so, yes. Even to this day, the horrid meat grinder the German and Japanese civilians were subject to during WW2 acts as a big deterrent. It's not just active soldiers who should be targets but anyone who empowered and supports the upper brass of government.

At the time. I think the entirety of Japanese culture was toxic. If there was a single good bone in the culture the Japanese wouldn't have done what they did in WW2. Hundreds of thousands were being killed by that culture and some serious thinning of the heard was overdue. Small nuclear weapons are great for that shock factor.

The effectiveness of two small nuclear bombs are much greater than the sum of their kills. Even to this day we talk a lot about the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with no definitive answer. That alone says a lot about just how dubious the Japanese public were at that time. The morality of nuking two civilian cities should be a no brainer after all right?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,579

24 Nov 2022, 4:00 pm

Nades wrote:
Nukes were fair I think. Like you said comeuppance. Being civilians doesn't automatically absolve them of culpability.


It would be fair to say there was substantial "group think" among the populace in both Japan and Germany during this time. While it doesn't necessarily justify carpet bombing or rape, but collateral damage of civilians is inevitable.

For example civilian deaths committed by UN and US troops in Somalia



Last edited by cyberdad on 24 Nov 2022, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DeathFlowerKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2022
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,761
Location: City of Roses

24 Nov 2022, 4:07 pm

Nades wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Nades wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Worst part is the second bomb was dropped expirimenetally to see what would happen. Even dropping the first one was extreme but people felt it was nessisary...dropping the second one was not even seen as necessary but they still dropped it. Idk I feel it is one of the most disgusting things this country has ever done....I just don't feel it is right to nuke civilians ever.


The cost analysis of using nuclear bombs is no different to carpet bombing of Dresden. The Japanese imperial forces would have fought to the death (according to Bushido code) and cost the Americans perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives.

There may be several million Americans alive today who might not exist had emperor Hirohito not been forced to surrender. As with the Germans, the Japanese experienced karma for all the atrocities they committed. Not a single Asian who lived under Japanese occupation would have shed a tear for the japanese civilians who died in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Same with the millions of survivors of German occupation would have never shed a single tear for the German civilians who suffered under Russian occupation.

It's called natural law/order of things. Karma.

And before certain people try and report me to the mods...no I don't condone the deaths of German or Japanese civilians but I do understand the sentiment toward them getting their comeuppance.


Nukes were fair I think. Like you said comeuppance. Being civilians doesn't automatically absolve them of culpability.

Civilians are acceptable targets depending on how they behave and their beliefs. (Yes, I actually said beliefs). Overall japanese sentiment of the public at the time of WW2 was disgusting. The atrocities in China and the whole "Meh" from the Japanese public was bad enough.

Rape of Berlin? I dunno. It's just a city compared to an entire country. I think a lot of Germans were against the Nazi government too.


I get that it was nessisary to drop the nuke, but still seems morally wrong...but sometimes in war morally wrong decisions have to be made. But was it necessary to drop the second one? that I am not so sure about.

And of course many Germans where against the Nazi government, quite a few hid jews in their homes, which was extremely risky.


I think so, yes. Even to this day, the horrid meat grinder the German and Japanese civilians were subject to during WW2 acts as a big deterrent. It's not just active soldiers who should be targets but anyone who empowered and supports the upper brass of government.

At the time. I think the entirety of Japanese culture was toxic. If there was a single good bone in the culture the Japanese wouldn't have done what they did in WW2. Hundreds of thousands were being killed by that culture and some serious thinning of the heard was overdue. Small nuclear weapons are great for that shock factor.

The effectiveness of two small nuclear bombs are much greater than the sum of their kills. Even to this day we talk a lot about the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with no definitive answer. That alone says a lot about just how dubious the Japanese public were at that time. The morality of nuking two civilian cities should be a no brainer after all right?


I'm sorry but something about this whole statement reeks of racism towards the Japanese. That's all I'm going to say.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,579

24 Nov 2022, 4:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think the Marshal Plan had had more to do with Germany and Japan rising from the ashes, as the vanquished rarely can use the spoils of war to their advantage. We and the Soviets actually had used war spoils to build the Post WWII world order.


The Marshall plan was intended to rebuild a strong Germany and Japan after to war to counter the rise of the Soviet Union. This included allowing large industrial companies that benefited from slave labor during the war to kick start major manufacturing in areas such as the Japanese and German automobile and subsequently tech industries.

One thing to take note was how the German population could be duped twice (so it appears). After WWI German reparations for imperial actions had repurcussions for the German people in the form of hardships yet they fell for the imperial ambitions of the Nazis all over again in the 1930s. If they were motivated by retribution then there is some level of culpability. If the inaction by a section of the German population to overthrow Hitler was motivated by fear then it doesn't shine a good light given the partisan movements in occupied terroritories never gave up in overthrowing nazism and civilians willingly sacrificed themselves against German tyranny.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 8:16 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
How did I "miss" that connection?

Obviously, what happened with the Ukrainians is the same as what happened with the Germans.

Murder is murder. Raping and pillaging is raping and pillaging.

I put Stalin and Hitler in an identical category.


I wish you would indicate to whom you are replying.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 8:20 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad is misdirecting the conversation.
It was never a comparison between Russian and German atrocities.

cyberdad has difficulty understanding the point I was making.
I hope it is not intentional.


You started this thread with -The brave Russian military tradition continues today connecting russian atrocities against Ukrainian civilians with those against German civilians way back in WWII.

I posit that the tone of your posts are decidedly intended to cast the Russian people as "villians" I presented evidence that the two events are driven by completely different situational circumstances. I also forgot to point out that in both Ukraine and Nazi Germany there were documented cases of Russian troops who intervened to defend civilians from their own troops. Alas no such mercy was shown to the victims of german/Ukrainian pogroms against Jews, Slavs and Gyspies. The enthusiastic zeal shown by the fascists was far more horrific than anything that happened in the Battle of Berlin.

No amount of spinning is going to change history.


Tell it to my mother, ****
For an NT, you sure don't seem to possess a great deal of empathy.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 8:32 pm

carlos55 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


This is my understanding. My mother knew nothing about it.
It was classified information that even Hitler was careful not to mention directly.

Obviously, had Germany won the war, these atrocities would have been swept under the carpet/white-washed, as so many allied war crimes have been.
To the victors, the spoils, and one of the spoils of victory is to rewrite/revise/deny history.

But all this is off-topic.
I am not a topic Nazi, so to speak, but I am tired of a certain individual's callus approach in this thread.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


DeathFlowerKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2022
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,761
Location: City of Roses

24 Nov 2022, 8:35 pm

So now we're sympathizing with Nazis over Americans too? Man this world is getting even more twisted than it normally is...



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 8:36 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


That's true... any time I watch videos and documentaries about WW2 from the American POV I can tell it's heavily propagandized. Like in regards to how we treated the Japanese during this war. They make our side sound so honorable and never bring up the fact that we were shooting Japanese soldiers who had surrendered and collecting their skulls as trophies.

And don't even get me started on the Japanese internment camps, or the atom bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. :|


And sending the skulls to their girlfriends.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


DeathFlowerKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2022
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,761
Location: City of Roses

24 Nov 2022, 8:40 pm

Pepe wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


That's true... any time I watch videos and documentaries about WW2 from the American POV I can tell it's heavily propagandized. Like in regards to how we treated the Japanese during this war. They make our side sound so honorable and never bring up the fact that we were shooting Japanese soldiers who had surrendered and collecting their skulls as trophies.

And don't even get me started on the Japanese internment camps, or the atom bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. :|


And sending the skulls to their girlfriends.


Yes we all know by now that Americans are secretly barbaric. But so were the Japanese in their war crimes. And unlike the Germans I don't think they ever really apologized to anybody.

Every side that fought in World War 2 behaved monstrously. Just like every war. Ever.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 9:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Worst part is the second bomb was dropped expirimenetally to see what would happen. Even dropping the first one was extreme but people felt it was nessisary...dropping the second one was not even seen as necessary but they still dropped it. Idk I feel it is one of the most disgusting things this country has ever done....I just don't feel it is right to nuke civilians ever.


The cost analysis of using nuclear bombs is no different to carpet bombing of Dresden. The Japanese imperial forces would have fought to the death (according to Bushido code) and cost the Americans perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives.

There may be several million Americans alive today who might not exist had emperor Hirohito not been forced to surrender. As with the Germans, the Japanese experienced karma for all the atrocities they committed. Not a single Asian who lived under Japanese occupation would have shed a tear for the japanese civilians who died in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Same with the millions of survivors of German occupation would have never shed a single tear for the German civilians who suffered under Russian occupation.

It's called natural law/order of things. Karma.

And before certain people try and report me to the mods...no I don't condone the deaths of German or Japanese civilians but I do understand the sentiment toward them getting their comeuppance.


This is factually wrong and a gross generalisation.

I was impressed by how much sympathy was given by ordinary ppl of allied countries when they heard about the revenge man-made famine in Germany in the 2 years after the war.

Personally, I don't condemn all the Russian population because of their psychopathic, murdering bastard leader.
Many Russian ppl have been arrested protesting against pootin, and many have left the country so they wouldn't be drafted into an illegal and immoral war (1 million at least, I have heard), after all.

And what about the soldiers who were sent into Ukraine who had no idea why they were there, with some surrendering to Ukrainian forces rather than engaging in the killing?

You seem to have such a two-dimensional view of the world.
"Curious."


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 9:47 pm

Jakki wrote:
Check this conspiracy theory below:
Gotta wonder if Wars are a product of the Ultra secret G6. Or 7 Summits . Well we cannot directly cull the population of the Earth , So let’s have Wars ..to serve as a mass Eugenics program. :skull:
Just think sending young virile men into harms way . Would easily cut off the chance of future offspring of those same men or women . :twisted:


When covid first came out, I suspected it was designed to kill off the old deadwood and leave the younger people.
Curious how it is benign for the vast majority of people under 30.

And, yes, wars do "help" with culling the population.
But starvation/famine is better and the preferred method of genocide.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,970
Location: Australia

24 Nov 2022, 9:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

In all fairness though, the German and Japanese civilians killed in those bombings couldn't be held responsible for what their totalitarian governments and militaries had done. Though I understand why people who have been hurt wouldn't see the difference between guilty and innocent, just national identities, as wrong as that attitude is.


It is much easier and emotionally satisfying to hate rather than to understand.
Studies have identified that most humans are more emotional than rational.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


DeathFlowerKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2022
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,761
Location: City of Roses

24 Nov 2022, 10:17 pm

Human nature. Embrace it. 8)