New Age spirituality has become a cesspool of garbage

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Fnord
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24 Nov 2022, 1:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
. . . Suddenly anything is possible, what was new age becomes fact overnight.
Once valid empirical evidence is produced that supports the claims.  Until then, claims are only claims, and nothing more.


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cyberdad
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24 Nov 2022, 1:25 am

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Religion yields confusion.  Science yields knowledge.
Wait, aren't you Christian?
Yes, and an elder in the church.  What of it?

I deal with people who have not read their Bibles, yet who believe that it says things like, "Love the sinner, hate the sin", "The lion shall lay down with the lamb", "God helps those who help themselves", and "Cleanliness is next to Godliness".  The Bible does not say these things, yet 'Christian' parents are teaching their children that it does, and then get angry when I teach that it does not.

There are 'Christians' who believe that Donald Trump is God's own Anointed One, when there is no evidence -- Biblical or otherwise -- to support the claim.

There are 'Christians' who believe that the Universe was created in October of 4004 B.C. because some medieval bishop says so, even though the Bible does not.

Then there are 'Christians' who still pray to idols and dead people, even though the Bible say not to.

Science, at least, has experimental evidence to back up most of its claims.


Ok...I feel we have had this conversation before so let's leave this be.



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24 Nov 2022, 1:32 am

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
. . . Suddenly anything is possible, what was new age becomes fact overnight.
Once valid empirical evidence is produced that supports the claims.  Until then, claims are only claims, and nothing more.


I don't have a problem with the scientific method or the application of occam's razor to incredible claims...but

My accusation is that many in the scientific community don't actually apply the scientific method by exhausting all explanations for unusual evidence/observations/phenomenon.

For example when this incident occurred
https://www.wired.com/story/oumuamua-wa ... =social_fb
a senior astronomer in Harvard told the head of Astronomy Avi Loeb he wished it didn't exist because it's existence contravened known laws of astronomy. That's an example of not applying the scientific method correctly simply because it contradicts existing dogma



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24 Nov 2022, 1:47 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I dumped the New Age decades ago because it started to feel like the same hypocritical crap that I'd seen everywhere else. I agree that it's probably better to be a lazy atheist. I've been that way for a long time. What were you looking for? I suppose I was after like minds, some community that matched my ideology nicely. Nearest thing I found was bunches of anarchists and amateur Lefties of anti-mainstream persuasion, but it was a young person's game. They've grown older now, they've changed a bit and have largely scattered to the winds, but I still feel pretty safe with the ones I've not completely lost touch with, and still like them immensely. Not that I expect much of them.


You are right about it being the same hypocritical garbage as everything else...

I guess what I was looking for in things like wicca, witchcraft, and neopaganism was for one thing: something to add a sense of real magic to my life because as a powerless person I wanted to feel like I could gain power in my life with tarot cards and crystals and casting curses and all that s**t (ridiculous I know...) :|


And to be honest i really love mythology. That was one of the things that drew me to this kind of stuff. But now thanks to the woke movement it's like I'm not even allowed to take an interest in the mythical gods, figures, or monsters I WANT to because of 'cultural appropriation'. :roll:


That bothers me, like you should be able to appreciate mythology and stuff without that. But yeah for instance some white supremacists use nordic pagan symbols that really have nothing to do with their hateful movement, but the it gives those symbols and runes a bad rap when that is not really what they are about. Idk my brother has gotten norse tattoos and he has mentioned sometimes people assume its nazi stuff so he has to explain its not anything like that at all. If it was me I just wouldn't get the tattoos but, he really likes those symbols and is into norse paganism so it is meaningful to him and worth it to have to explain it to people sometimes.

And idk cultural appropration is a weird topic, like my brother had dreads and then I tried it out a while but heard it was apprprioation, but looking into old hairstyles seeems like dreads are a thing that could have shown up in multiple cultures. But like Idk seems sorta gate-keeping to dictate who can have which hair style. Idk i feel like everyone should just be able to do whatever they want with their hair regardless of gender or race or anything else.

But about the norse symbols it's not the first time sh*tty nazis have appropriated something, for instance the swastika was not always a nazi symbol...


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Fnord
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24 Nov 2022, 1:49 am

The thing about events like Oumuamua is that (1) nobody really knows everything that happened, because (2) there is too little corroborative evidence, so (3) a slightly different wording of what is known is pounced upon as new evidence.

Oumuamua caught scientists by surprise, so the efforts to find out lacked large-scale coordination, but were exercised at random as equipment became available.  While there are known facts, there are too few for a definitive claim, so speculations run rampant.

It is right there in the article you cited:

Quote:
Ultimately the transient nature of the observations has frustrated astronomers’ ability to solve the mystery of our first interstellar guest.  "We had only a few weeks, with almost no planning, to make the observations,” said Matthew Knight, an astronomer at the University of Maryland.  "Everybody's trying to wring out every last bit of information they can from what data we were able to collect as a community."  Had Oumuamua been spotted earlier, or had Hurricane Maria not taken Puerto Rico’s Arecibo Observatory out of action, astronomers would have more to go on.


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24 Nov 2022, 2:13 am

Fnord wrote:
Had Oumuamua been spotted earlier, or had Hurricane Maria not taken Puerto Rico’s Arecibo Observatory out of action, astronomers would have more to go on.[/i]
[/color][/quote]

I think this statement is code for "if we had more data then we could neatly fit it into our existing paradigm.

But don't take my word for it. The head of Astronomy at Harvard, Avi Loeb says this as well
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/15/why-ph ... pacecraft/

He and I are both saying we must be prepared to break existing dogma and explore what might be labelled new age in order to cross of every explanation from the list of possibilities. Exhausting all explanations is part of the scientific method.



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24 Nov 2022, 2:33 am

cyberdad wrote:
. . . we must be prepared to break existing dogma and explore what might be labelled new age in order to cross of every explanation from the list of possibilities. Exhausting all explanations is part of the scientific method.
Sure, let's "cross off every explanation form a list of possibilities", including those which have no supportive evidence.  However, in order to "exhaust all explanations", those so-called 'explanations' must be exhaustible.  That is, one must be able to compare the explanations against the available evidence, and when the evidence is as scanty and unreliable as what is currently available, those 'explanations' are automatically demoted to 'speculations' -- opinions -- for which the current evidence is insufficient.

Right now, all we have is a mystery with too few clues to lead us to a "Eureka!" moment.


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24 Nov 2022, 2:52 am

The problem here is that science assumes a linear evolution of technology from primitive to advanced. But this is not the case in the ancient world. The oldest pyramid in Egypt is also the most mathematically complex. Same in South America, India and South East Asia. The most ancient the temple/building structures are the more advanced.

Children learn that advanced calculus was developed in Europe in the 17th century yet Nan Modal in the south pacific shows evidence of the application of advanced calculus equations to work out load bearing for arched doorways carrying the weight of several hundred tonnes of stone at least a thousand years ago by people considered to be primitive tribal hunter gatherers.



cyberdad
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24 Nov 2022, 2:53 am

Fnord wrote:
Right now, all we have is a mystery with too few clues to lead us to a "Eureka!" moment.[/color]


And sometimes the clues are considered inconvenient



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24 Nov 2022, 9:14 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I dumped the New Age decades ago because it started to feel like the same hypocritical crap that I'd seen everywhere else. I agree that it's probably better to be a lazy atheist. I've been that way for a long time. What were you looking for? I suppose I was after like minds, some community that matched my ideology nicely. Nearest thing I found was bunches of anarchists and amateur Lefties of anti-mainstream persuasion, but it was a young person's game. They've grown older now, they've changed a bit and have largely scattered to the winds, but I still feel pretty safe with the ones I've not completely lost touch with, and still like them immensely. Not that I expect much of them.


You are right about it being the same hypocritical garbage as everything else...

I guess what I was looking for in things like wicca, witchcraft, and neopaganism was for one thing: something to add a sense of real magic to my life because as a powerless person I wanted to feel like I could gain power in my life with tarot cards and crystals and casting curses and all that s**t (ridiculous I know...) :|


And to be honest i really love mythology. That was one of the things that drew me to this kind of stuff. But now thanks to the woke movement it's like I'm not even allowed to take an interest in the mythical gods, figures, or monsters I WANT to because of 'cultural appropriation'. :roll:


That bothers me, like you should be able to appreciate mythology and stuff without that. But yeah for instance some white supremacists use nordic pagan symbols that really have nothing to do with their hateful movement, but the it gives those symbols and runes a bad rap when that is not really what they are about. Idk my brother has gotten norse tattoos and he has mentioned sometimes people assume its nazi stuff so he has to explain its not anything like that at all. If it was me I just wouldn't get the tattoos but, he really likes those symbols and is into norse paganism so it is meaningful to him and worth it to have to explain it to people sometimes.

And idk cultural appropration is a weird topic, like my brother had dreads and then I tried it out a while but heard it was apprprioation, but looking into old hairstyles seeems like dreads are a thing that could have shown up in multiple cultures. But like Idk seems sorta gate-keeping to dictate who can have which hair style. Idk i feel like everyone should just be able to do whatever they want with their hair regardless of gender or race or anything else.

But about the norse symbols it's not the first time sh*tty nazis have appropriated something, for instance the swastika was not always a nazi symbol...


It's not that i feel i NEED this stuff to appreciate mythology, I feel attracted to it BECAUSE of my love for mythology. I have enjoyed these stories about Gods, Heroes, and Monsters since I was a kid. And realizing there was a religious movement out there that still tries to honor some of these deities felt very appealing to me.

And yes Nazis ruin everything they touch. Also the dreadlocks thing is a perfect example of how stupid the cultural appropriation accusation has become. It completely ignores actual history.

Just like with Lilith even. She's NOT unique to Jewish culture, she was also mentioned in Sumerian texts and may have evolved from one of their older evil goddesses known as Lamashtu, and the Ancient Greeks most likely got the inspiration for the creature Lamia from Lilith with whom she shares similarities.



aghogday
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24 Nov 2022, 10:52 am



Happy ThanksGiving Y'all;

Other than that There IS This, A Huge
Difference Between Knowledge

And Wisdom And Science

And Human Potentials

As Wisdom Understands
That Even Letters of Words
Are Idols And Only Approximations
of What Words Bring to Represent Reality.

It's Like This, When The Priest Raises the So-called
Bible Written Mostly By A Bunch of Unknown Ghost Authors
Through The Ages; Yes, When He Raises That Bible to the 'Heavens;'

He is Only Worshipping Idols of Words That only Approximate Reality at

Best And the Only

'Real Humans'

He is Worshipping in the
Book are Mostly The Frigging
Ghost Authors Who Wrote the Stories;

Both Prose and Poetry Associated With
A Character Who Never is Recorded to Have

Written A Word in His Whole Life Who Has Been
Named Several Names; Currently Jesus, in that Book.

It's True, There Are Ups and Downs of All So Called
'Sacred And Holy Texts,' Religions, And So-Called Mystical

Spirituality That Unifies

Rather Than Taking

The World AParT,

(Forgetting to Put
Our Worlds Back
Together Again
Hehe; Yes Like
'Humpty Dumpty')

Attempting to Do This
in Idol Symbols Like Words

in A Small and Very Antiquated

5-Step Scientific Method too That Is

So Very Limited As it Only Measures What

May Be Empirically Observed; GUESS WHAT!

YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO EITHER HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS

THAT ONLY COMPRISES ABOUT HALF A PERCENT OF THE REST

OF WHAT MAKES UP THE DAY TO DAY PROCESSES THAT GO INTO

MAKING A HUMAN BEING REAL, INCLUDING THE VAST DOMAIN OF

THE 'DARK MATTER' OF THE HUMAN Subconscious MIND; SO, FOR ANYONE WITH

ANY 'HORSE SENSE' AT LEAST; It Stands to Reason And Actual Wisdom How Limited

Human Language

is And the Tiny Limits

That Are What the Scientific

Method Can and Will Actually Do

to Measure the Inner UniVerse of Being

Human that is Unique for Each and Every

Multi-Universe Created By Both Small Parts
of Conscious Creation and Mostly Our Subconscious
Mind and Other Processes That We Have No Way to Discretely

Measure At All
As Far As
Empirical
Observation
Required to Use
The Scientific Method;

On the Other Hand, We Can Still
Measure Observable Effects in the Environment

We Live in; For Instance, the Meditation That So-called
'New Age Spirituality' Helped Greatly to Introduce to the West

From the East; As True That used to be Called Woo By Scientists too;

As it took Them So Long to Find Someway to Measure The Way Meditation

Improves Even the Structures of the Mind With Brain Scans As Such; And Sure,

Modern Science Has Figured Out Ways to Assess the 500 Percent Increases that
Come in Creativity

When Human Beings

Move into An Area of

FLoWinG Meditation Whether

That comes from Still or Moving
Meditation Just Several Instance A Week

As Quietening our So-called 'Word Thinking Minds'

Opens Up More of Our Subconscious Potentials to Rise

in 'Transient Hypo-Frontality;' Again, Just a Fancy Dancy Singy Way to Science Flow

Like Wheat Away From the Chaff to Increase So much MORE Human Potential

Measured At Least Somewhat By the Very limited tool of the Scientific Method

To Truly
Do This
Empirically
As Such in An
Observable Way
That May Be Repeated.

Do Note, i Used Some Metaphors
Up there; For Folks Who Do Not Employ

Much of Their Right Hemisphere Mind As Related
By Stellar Modern Scholar Iain McGilchrist in

Detailed Modern Scientific Research; Indeed,

Understanding Metaphor May Be As Easy

As Seeing in the Dark for Those Who Do Not Develop

That Kind of Intelligence or Sadly Are Born With Innate

Deficits in this Kind of Human Potential Intelligence; Sadly too,

For Those Ghost Authors Who Did Write the Poetry and Prose That

Approximates Experiences in Reality in the Old Bible With All the Cess
Pool Parts of that Book that May Be Used to Justify Homophobia, Violence,
Rape, And Just About Anything Disgusting in Life One May Wish to Do if Cherry
Picked Out of that Cess Pool Book; Yes, When it Comes to the Jewels, the More Mystical

Unifying Metaphors in the

Book, For Those Who Can

Only See Limited Literal

Interpretations of the More
Mystical Unifying Metaphors of the

Book; They Are Just As Blind As Those
Who Attempt to See in the Dark too;

It's Not Uncommon For So-Called Scientists

Who Use the Scientific Method to Be Very Restricted
in 'Left Hemisphere Ways' of Thinking And Analyzing Reality;

It's True, What We Feed Our Mind Day to Day We Become More Of;

And as Many Others Have Noted, The Potentials As Such Between
Militant Scientist Type Atheists And Fundamentalist Literal Bible Readers

Are Very Similar Indeed As They Are Restricted to A Life With Far Fewer 'Colors'

of Human Potential;

And A Problem For REAL is

As Those who Attempt to See in the Dark,

You Can't Give Them Your 'Eyes' Until Science Figures

Out A Way to Do it; Or Perhaps They Start Reading Poetry

And Develop that Human Potential Far, Far, Away From a Land of Science Abstracts hehe;

Yet it Won't Work For Some Folks; As Obviously Some Folks Never Come Close to understanding

The More Mystical Metaphors that Unify in that Old Bible that May Be Found Cross-Culturally Similarly

in Many Other 'Sacred
And Holy Texts' for those
With 'Eyes and Ears' to See
And Hear Far Beyond What Only

The Scientific
Method is able to See

in Terms of Human Organs
of Only Eyes and Ears of Course.

i Understand We aRe Social Animals At Core
And Solitary Confinement is Even Considered
Torture for Prisoners Assessed As Psychopaths

Who Do the Most Horrible of Violent Disgusting Crimes;

Yet We Do Have Freedom of Expression in Our Country;

If You Get So-called Canceled in New Age Spiritual Realms of

The Internet if that is the Only Place One May Find Any Connection at All
in Life With Human Beings; The World Now is A Vast Ocean Online of Human Beings;

Keep Looking Until You Find A Place That Accepts the Flavor of Your Human Ways of
Being and Beliefs And Doing Life Where You Come Close to Self-Actualizing Who You Feel

And Sense
You Truly Are;

Hey, i'm Financially Independent;
Home and Car Paid Off, No Loans,

Loving Wife and Home And Family

Who Doesn't Tell Lies and Thank God

Can See Through the Lies of Church and
State too that Has Become A Lying Frigging
Circus Everywhere Ya Turn on the TV and Internet At Least Hehe...

True, i Practically Live in the Garden of Eden All Naked Enough Whole Complete

YET GUESS WHAT, my Life Wasn't Always Like This; i Used to Only Be Able to See

The World in Black and White;

And Indeed it Was A Very

Drab and Ignorant

Place for me then;

It Was A Bit Hard to Face the Reality

THAT with Three Degrees And Retiring
After 33 Years of Total Work and 25 YEARS
OF GOVERNMENT FEDERAL WORK Retiring At

An NF-04 Grade Equivalent to an 0-4 Marine Major
Early Indeed With Just About the Worst Case of Autism
Burn-out And 'General Adaptation Syndrome' That The

Doctors Attending to me with 19 Mostly Stress Related Disorders
in A Synergy of Life Threat with No Prognosis of Recovery As Yes
They Assessed
me As the Worst

Case They Ever
Saw Then; And YOU KNOW

WHY, All that Education; All the
Federal Employee Government Work;
All Those Technical Fields associated with
Information Technology, Financial Management;

Editing Writing Of Other Folks And Generally Making
Money Coming Up The Ladder of the So-called American Dream

Left me with the

Greatest Poverty of

All yes Understanding Who i am

DEEP, DEEP, WITHIN BEYOND ALL WORDS

AS SPIRIT FOR REAL ALL THE EMOTIONS AND
SENSES FINALLY COMING TO BE FINELY TUNED

LIKE A FERRARI HUMAN BEING IN REGULATION
AND INTEGRATION FROM HEAD TO TOE BY LIVING

A LIFE OF FLOWING
MEDITATION IN DANCE

AND SONG YES HEAD TO TOE

AND SO MUCH MORE CONNECTING

TO MORE ADVANCED SPIRITUALLY UNIFYING

HUMAN BEINGS ALL AROUND THE WORLD; Thank

God i am No Longer Just a Cog in a Machine; And For

All the Failures That Have Come With New Age Spirituality,

The One Part they Got

Correct is the Benefit

of Flowing Contemplating

Meditation As What Truly Helps Create

A Human Being Naked Enough Whole Complete;

Truly Nothing to add or Subtract As Human Becomes

Love and
Peace Incarnate

Eternally Now And FINALLY,
FINALLY, FINALLY, YOU UNDERSTAND

WHAT THE MYTHS AND METAPHORS

IN THAT OLD BIBLE TRULY MEAN

(And Many, Many Others)

AS FAR AS BECOMING

DELIVERED OUT
OF PURGATORY

AND HELL ON THIS

EARTH Reborn inTO A REAL KINGDOM
AND QUEENDOM OF HEAVEN IN BALANCE WITHIN;

YAWN, EVERYTHING ELSE YA DO BECOMES ICING ON GOD...

Helping Folks to See This Reality is Indeed Like Fitting Turkeys

Through Eyes

of Needles

On Thank Giving
For Giving Day Year 'Round Hehe...

Anyway i Do Have the Perspective
of Purgatory and Hell to Understand

Where i Truly Am Now with SMiLes...

It May Be Difficult Yet Today's Hell
May Eventually Be Heaven Now Eternally So...

Hmm, Works
For me at Least

And i am Not So
Frigging Arrogant
to Suggest i am 'The Only One'...

In Other Areas of Existence, This is Just
A Way Of Life in Balance; Yep, GOD YES Like the

Other Much 'SmARTer' Animals than Humans, Overall...

The Height of Ignorance, Suggesting Humans Will Ever Thrive or

Even

Continue
to Actually Live on "Mars"

A 'Perfect' Example of When Wisdom Fails

At the Hands of So-Called Knowledge, Skills,
Abilities, Intelligence, and 'Stellar STANDARD IQ'...

Horses and
Wells, Horses And Wells;

Water, Water, Everywhere And
Not A Drop to Drink in Living
Purgatory and or HeLL ON EartH;

Indeed, it is Possible to LiVE ON
The 'MooN' ON Earth ThiS Way...

too...

YUCK.

REAL

SPiRiTuALiTY

Is Indeed 'Before The Apple'...

Hey! That Old Bible! Has Some

Really Wise

Parts too

From the
Very Beginning
of the End Again...

Welcome to 'The Matrix'

-YoU KNoW WHO...

~Oh 'Lord', 'A World' Where 'Trailers' Are Better Than 'Movies'...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ix7TUGVYIo



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DeathFlowerKing
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24 Nov 2022, 4:42 pm

I think what had originally drawn me to wanting to work with Lilith was realizing she's essentially a misanthropic deity/spirit who sees the human race for the real monsters we truly are. By spreading premature death among human infants she basically represents a form of population control to keep the balance of nature in order. And this applies to all her incarnations like Lamashtu and Lamia plus others that I suspect are connected to her as a primordial she-demon like Echidna and Tamamo no Mae.

And contrary to the popular belief among many wiccans that she is a symbol of the feminist movement and an ally to women, I personally don't believe this for one minute. They only believe this because of her story in the Alphabet of Ben Sira about being Adam's first wife which modern scholars now believe to be the work of satire.

If she were truly a friend to women why would she attack and kill pregnant mothers? Or their babies?

And to ignore the truth of what she really is to try and make her into a benevolent goddess she never was is just whitewashing and a form of sexism in itself to ignore and suppress the dark side of femininity and nature.

I like her because she will ultimately be the one to cure the overpopulation of the unruly human species which thinks they can conquer and tame the planet. She will be the one to ultimately save the planet itself from our terrible species and give it back to nature where it belongs.



cyberdad
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24 Nov 2022, 5:41 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Just like with Lilith even. She's NOT unique to Jewish culture, she was also mentioned in Sumerian texts and may have evolved from one of their older evil goddesses known as Lamashtu, and the Ancient Greeks most likely got the inspiration for the creature Lamia from Lilith with whom she shares similarities.


An interesting number of deities in Indo-European and Jewish religions have their origin in eastern cultures. If you follow the old testament the ancestors of the Jews (Abraham) dwelled in Ur of the Chaldees which was of course Sumeria. Strangely the Sumerians themselves are never mentioned in the Bible. One interesting theory is the migration of Abraham and his sons from Sumer alludes to the migration of Sumerians themselves escaping the invading Babylonians.

Odin and Thor are of course descended from the Sanskrit/hindu deity of thunder and war Indra



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24 Nov 2022, 6:09 pm

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Just like with Lilith even. She's NOT unique to Jewish culture, she was also mentioned in Sumerian texts and may have evolved from one of their older evil goddesses known as Lamashtu, and the Ancient Greeks most likely got the inspiration for the creature Lamia from Lilith with whom she shares similarities.


An interesting number of deities in Indo-European and Jewish religions have their origin in eastern cultures. If you follow the old testament the ancestors of the Jews (Abraham) dwelled in Ur of the Chaldees which was of course Sumeria. Strangely the Sumerians themselves are never mentioned in the Bible. One interesting theory is the migration of Abraham and his sons from Sumer alludes to the migration of Sumerians themselves escaping the invading Babylonians.

Odin and Thor are of course descended from the Sanskrit/hindu deity of thunder and war Indra


The Greek Goddess Aphrodite was also heavily influenced by the Sumerian Goddess Inanna who was also known as Ishtar.

Stuff like this is why I consider myself to be an omnist. All religions and myths just about are connected to each other in some way or another.



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24 Nov 2022, 8:23 pm

The first religion came about when the first scoundrel met the first fool.

Sure, have faith in God, but do not go telling me I have to turn cartwheels while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in order to achieve salvation.


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24 Nov 2022, 8:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
The first religion came about when the first scoundrel met the first fool.

Sure, have faith in God, but do not go telling me I have to turn cartwheels while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in order to achieve salvation.


And humans like that are exactly why I wish to pray to a primordial she-demon hell bent on wiping out mankind. At least enough to keep the population down. :twisted: