New Age spirituality has become a cesspool of garbage

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DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 1:31 am

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
She was blamed for basically influencing powerful kings and emperors while disguised as a concubine to these men :


Again curious concidence but in the Saga of Beauwulf, Grendel's mother took the form of a beautiful nymph who seduced the kings of Denmark



It's a story as widespread as the world and as old as time itself. :) A beautiful and charming but dangerous woman behind a powerful man who leads him and his kingdom down a path to ruin.

Kinda like the character Lady Macbeth in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" who manipulated her husband and brought their kingdom to ruin. Or the bibilical story of Jezebel.



cyberdad
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27 Nov 2022, 1:39 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Kinda like the character Lady Macbeth in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" who manipulated her husband and brought their kingdom to ruin. Or the bibilical story of Jezebel.


Infact Jezebel's daughter Athaliah (later Queen Athaliah) was considered even worse than her mother. Interestingly (and this coincidence keeps occuring) Athaliah followed the old gods of Babylon and Sumer. Again I wonder how much is myth conflated with real life?



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27 Nov 2022, 1:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Kinda like the character Lady Macbeth in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" who manipulated her husband and brought their kingdom to ruin. Or the bibilical story of Jezebel.


Infact Jezebel's daughter Athaliah (later Queen Athaliah) was considered even worse than her mother. Interestingly (and this coincidence keeps occuring) Athaliah followed the old gods of Babylon and Sumer. Again I wonder how much is myth conflated with real life?


Not sure, personally while I do find these tales of evil women manipulating powerful men and bringing their kingdoms down to ruin interesting for entertainment I find them a bit sexist too. It's like whenever a man in power failed miserably at his job in those days, they would find a way to blame the woman by his side.

I'm not foolish enough to believe that all women are innocent victims of patriarchy, but there is no doubt a kind of sexism in these myths and stories that give a glimpse into how much people in ancient times really looked down on women. :|



cyberdad
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27 Nov 2022, 2:09 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I'm not foolish enough to believe that all women are innocent victims of patriarchy, but there is no doubt a kind of sexism in these myths and stories that give a glimpse into how much people in ancient times really looked down on women. :|


The authors of the Jewish and christian bible did not by accident associate satan with the old gods. For example the popular god Baal was a horned god and the horns became associated with satan, In the ancient world, however, the pig was seen as a symbol of fertility, and in Egypt as an animal sacred to Isis, the goddess of agriculture, Ceres in Rome and Demeter in Greece. Not surprisingly the pig became associated with the unclean to both jews, early christians and muslims (European christians refused to give up pork as it was too important in European diet).

So getting back to the female "Jezebel's" their stories are inextricably associated with the old female goddesses who are depicted as evil and demonic like them. It' s mean't to reinforce the narrative
Old gods - bad
One god - only true god



naturalplastic
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27 Nov 2022, 6:06 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Kinda like the character Lady Macbeth in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" who manipulated her husband and brought their kingdom to ruin. Or the bibilical story of Jezebel.


Infact Jezebel's daughter Athaliah (later Queen Athaliah) was considered even worse than her mother. Interestingly (and this coincidence keeps occuring) Athaliah followed the old gods of Babylon and Sumer. Again I wonder how much is myth conflated with real life?


Not sure, personally while I do find these tales of evil women manipulating powerful men and bringing their kingdoms down to ruin interesting for entertainment I find them a bit sexist too. It's like whenever a man in power failed miserably at his job in those days, they would find a way to blame the woman by his side.

I'm not foolish enough to believe that all women are innocent victims of patriarchy, but there is no doubt a kind of sexism in these myths and stories that give a glimpse into how much people in ancient times really looked down on women. :|


Absolutely it's sexist.

Where does all of the evil, and suffering, in the World come from?

According to Pagan Greek mythology it all started because a certain young girl couldnt resist opening that mysterious footlocker that the Gods gave her (the tale of Pandora and her box).

According to the ancient Hebrew myth (inherited by Christians, and Muslims) its because Adam listened to Eve and ate the forbidden fruit off a tree - and God punished them both by banishing them from the Garden of Eden.

Its always the chick that messes things up!

Bronze Agers all seem to agree (whether they are monotheist, or polytheists). :lol:



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27 Nov 2022, 8:06 am

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Religion yields confusion.  Science yields knowledge.
Wait, aren't you Christian?
Yes, and an elder in the church.  What of it?




There are 'Christians' who believe that the Universe was created in October of 4004 B.C. because some medieval bishop says so, even though the Bible does not.
.


Actually, the Bible DOES say that.

Bible doesnt give any exact date for Creation. But that date is based upon data that is in the Bible.

And the reason that "some Christians believe that date" is NOT "just because Bishop Ussher said so in 1625", but because the Jewish authors of the Old Testament said that thousands of years before Bishop Ussher came around. According to the Jewish calendar this is the year 5782 because according to the traditional Jewish reading of scripture thats how many years ago Creation happened based upon the chronology of events in the Bible. Only a couple percentage points different from the 6024 figure that Ussher got.

Eastern Orthodox Christians make Genisis longer, and get a date for Creation at 5600 BC.. But its still only a few thousand years ago.

You failed to state what your beef with these Christians is. But if your problem with them is that they deny evolution because they deny an old billions of year old earth- then that is a question of science. Not of Biblical interpretation.

Its not the fault of Ussher that you cant shoehorn Darwin into the Bible. Its the fault of the Bible itself that you cant do that.



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27 Nov 2022, 10:35 am

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I'm not foolish enough to believe that all women are innocent victims of patriarchy, but there is no doubt a kind of sexism in these myths and stories that give a glimpse into how much people in ancient times really looked down on women. :|


The authors of the Jewish and christian bible did not by accident associate satan with the old gods. For example the popular god Baal was a horned god and the horns became associated with satan, In the ancient world, however, the pig was seen as a symbol of fertility, and in Egypt as an animal sacred to Isis, the goddess of agriculture, Ceres in Rome and Demeter in Greece. Not surprisingly the pig became associated with the unclean to both jews, early christians and muslims (European christians refused to give up pork as it was too important in European diet).

So getting back to the female "Jezebel's" their stories are inextricably associated with the old female goddesses who are depicted as evil and demonic like them. It' s mean't to reinforce the narrative
Old gods - bad
One god - only true god


Not only Baal but the Greek Fertility God known as Pan might have also been perverted into the concept of The Devil along with the Celtic Forest God known as Cernunnos.

They both also look suspiciously similar to the demon Baphomet whom the Nights Templar were accused of worshipping.

In my own opinion on this stuff I think it's possible 'demons' like Baphomet and Lilith are literally born out of lies or misunderstandings which give them an actual life of their own.

For example there is no proof that the Knights Templar ever actually worshipped Baphomet when they were scapegoated by the French Monarchy and burned at the stake for whatever reason. Baphomet was most likely fabricated and yet he has lived on as a demonic deity ever since.

Then there's the issues of Lilith. While there's no doubt Lilith has been a part of Jewish and to a lesser extent Sumerian folklore and oral tradition, the two things originally thought of as "proof" of Lilith like the Burney Relief discovered in Mesopotamia and the ancient book known as the Alphabet of Ben Sira have both been debunked by scholars in recent times. The Burney Relief that inspired what we believed to be Lilith's bird woman demonic form more than likely depicts the Goddess Inanna and not a demon like Lilith and the Alphabet of Ben Sira that depicts Lilith's origins story as the first wife of Adam is now believed by many Jewish Scholars to be a work of clever satire. Yet despite these misconceptions about who or what Lilith really is we all know she is a real part of ancient folklore.

So if 'The Devil' is indeed the "The Father of Lies", maybe this is how his demons are created? :twisted:



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27 Nov 2022, 10:42 am

naturalplastic wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Kinda like the character Lady Macbeth in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" who manipulated her husband and brought their kingdom to ruin. Or the bibilical story of Jezebel.


Infact Jezebel's daughter Athaliah (later Queen Athaliah) was considered even worse than her mother. Interestingly (and this coincidence keeps occuring) Athaliah followed the old gods of Babylon and Sumer. Again I wonder how much is myth conflated with real life?


Not sure, personally while I do find these tales of evil women manipulating powerful men and bringing their kingdoms down to ruin interesting for entertainment I find them a bit sexist too. It's like whenever a man in power failed miserably at his job in those days, they would find a way to blame the woman by his side.

I'm not foolish enough to believe that all women are innocent victims of patriarchy, but there is no doubt a kind of sexism in these myths and stories that give a glimpse into how much people in ancient times really looked down on women. :|


Absolutely it's sexist.

Where does all of the evil, and suffering, in the World come from?

According to Pagan Greek mythology it all started because a certain young girl couldnt resist opening that mysterious footlocker that the Gods gave her (the tale of Pandora and her box).

According to the ancient Hebrew myth (inherited by Christians, and Muslims) its because Adam listened to Eve and ate the forbidden fruit off a tree - and God punished them both by banishing them from the Garden of Eden.

Its always the chick that messes things up!

Bronze Agers all seem to agree (whether they are monotheist, or polytheists). :lol:


Yes I almost forgot about Pandora's curiosity getting the best of her causing her to unleash all this suffering on mankind. :lol:

I find it rather interesting that wiccans and neopagans embrace pagan deities as symbols of female empowerment when ancient people who worshipped these goddesses had very misogynistic views about women too.

But I guess I'm calling the kettle black. :lol:



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27 Nov 2022, 12:09 pm

I think these things work differently for different people.

The Qlippoth is often considered to be the kingdom of either Lilith and Samael or Lilith and Lucifer, Temple of Ascending Flame takes the Lilith and Lucifer path.

My own work has been to get myself more in tune with the rhythms of how the world really works. For men bravado and belligerence is almost required so as not to be stomped on by men with more bravado, belligerence, and hardened insecurity. It's equally required in many places to think about nothing other than competition and how to out guys who are already in spots to take their place, if you're not destructively hypercompetitive the ladies won't see you and these guys know that, and so everyone's slugging it out to raise their own status and for them to raise their status someone else has to lose their status. It's the world that I know I'll grow old and die in without any significant renewals of perspective taking place and I'm really not interested in being treated like a permachild, screw-up, or failure for the rest of my life for not being as Machiavellian as the people around me.

To me exploring the Qlippoth is that true-up, ie. finding a base within me from which to start tinkering with my own capacities and relative comfort in this regard (rather than feeling like an angel tarring itself) and not subconsciously have these capacities narrow me and make me dumb by becoming impulsive or getting all of the narcissist's blindspots but being very wise and practical, and being at the ready when I see a high status bully or narcissist with the understanding that if they ever try to pull shade on me or anyone I care about in a given organization that I'll be there to help escort them to the door.

Obviously tending to be 'gentle' and 'mellow', those things will always be 'weakness' in Darwinian terms and particularly in a world of competitive extroversion introverts will be the lesser slave race. Still - I really don't want to let these kinds of dynamics structure the world around me and I'd like to pay less for having interests much farther up my list of priority than cornholing apes.

This is sort of where it's important to understand that one's on inner Lilith, Lucifer, or Satan aren't the biblical matter but really zones of personal underdevelopment, especially for habitually 'good' people. This and nature has no moral compass, whatever works works, so a good person who hasn't weaponized themselves won't be saved from a bad person who has - in the eyes of nature there's no difference and in the end power is what wins. Yes, there are different kinds of power and you can build that by being a great coworker, great boss, etc. but you'll always be in competition with people who's primary skillset is sharpening their elbows so it's really important to be fluent in both languages.


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DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 12:36 pm

It reminds me of something the shopkeeper said in the movie The Craft.

"True magic is neither black nor white. It is both because nature is both loving and cruel all at the same time. The only good or bad is in the heart of the witch. Life gives a balance of its own."



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27 Nov 2022, 4:02 pm

One caution, when I lived in Asia, I was warned on numerous times to be wary of playing with demons. At a village level, the idea of bad spirits is universal. When you open the door spiritually (e.g. Ouija boards etc) you can't control whom you let in



DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 4:10 pm

cyberdad wrote:
One caution, when I lived in Asia, I was warned on numerous times to be wary of playing with demons. At a village level, the idea of bad spirits is universal. When you open the door spiritually (e.g. Ouija boards etc) you can't control whom you let in



Yeah I actually handmade myself an ouija board but have been afraid to use it due to this reason. Everyone has warned me not to mess with it...

And sometimes I truly wonder if obsessing on "Lilith" for years (or Lamashtu, Lamia, whoever she really is) has been basically opening doors for her to influence my life too? It's like even when I try I can't get rid of her from my thoughts...

Lilith is probably the most powerful female demon there is and unfortunately for me turned into one of my autistic special interests. :|



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27 Nov 2022, 5:56 pm

Lets put Lilith (infamous for killing babies and pregnant moms)in the ring with Kali (ferocious in killing in defense of offspring - in a her oddly weaponized version of motherhood), in a one on one smackdown! :D



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27 Nov 2022, 5:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Lets put Lilith (infamous for killing babies and pregnant moms)in the ring with Kali (ferocious in killing in defense of offspring - in a her oddly weaponized version of motherhood), in a one on one smackdown! :D


I'd buy tickets to see that! :D



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27 Nov 2022, 6:18 pm

I get the sense that Lilith is something like the western equivalent of Kali. IMHO they're both the organic / physical side of Shakti / Shekinah. I don't see them as 'evil' so much as being goddess in lower register.


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27 Nov 2022, 6:29 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I get the sense that Lilith is something like the western equivalent of Kali. IMHO they're both the organic / physical side of Shakti / Shekinah. I don't see them as 'evil' so much as being goddess in lower register.



I personally see her as more dangerous than "evil" (im uncomfortable with labels like good and evil drspite still being in the habit of using them...).

Just because she's not evil doesnt mean she's safe to dabble with. She represents the dark side of mother nature like the creatures who devour their own mates and their offspring (such as snakes and spiders).

She also keeps humans in line from overpopulating and drstroying the world. Like the wolf who keeps the deer from overpopulating and destroying the eco system of the forest. That's one beneficial role she holds in nature, even if that is not necessarily good for us humans.