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DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2008, 12:15 am

Orwell wrote:
Darwin was a Christian, buddy. His book doesn't argue against God, and his book isn't good science, either. I've read it, and much of what he believed is not accepted by any serious scientist today- after all, he knew nothing about genetics, since he didn't have access to Mendel's research.


Ahh buddy no he was not, what the heck 'much of what he belieived is not acceted by any serious scientist'. Are you serious what planet are you on ! !

Orwell wrote:
For you to claim such certainty like that is just an arrogant load of BS. If it were that simple, there would be no dispute because it would be obvious to everyone.


I am not completely certain, but if what I said is arrogant BS then there are many like me and at least my arrogant BS has some facts to back it up

Orwell wrote:
Let's face it- neither you nor I know for sure, and it takes a certain level of faith for either of us to hold to our beliefs. I don't bash on atheists for their beliefs. Please return the favor.

I am not trying to bash you, I am just trying to point out that religion has far too much influence on peoples lives for something that has no scientific basis. Have your faith, (if as you say you try to follow jesus's teaching as best you can, I commend you.) but realise that it is a faith and do not force other people to live their lives by it.


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Malsane
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15 Aug 2008, 1:55 am

Orwell wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Religion, science, politics, all these things are interrelated.

Only to people who insist on making them interrelated. To me, science and religion are separate spheres of knowledge. They address different questions, so how can they be in conflict? Only when you try to get everything you will ever know from a single source do you run into problems.
I hear this all the time, but I really don't understand it. How are they different spheres? A lot of the religious questions can easily be scientific. Things like, "is there a god?" "is there an afterlife?" can, and I think should, be asked from a scientific standpoint. Questions of what is are scientific questions. Questions of what should be are philosophical/moral questions, because that is a matter of outlook, not fact.

Politics is sort of sticky. In the US, politics is supposed to be secular, but it never is. Also, depending on how you define religion, it may be inextricably bound up in every aspect of an individual, so divorcing a person's religious views and political views may be nigh impossible.

So, I'd really like you to explain what questions we can really answer if we don't use some sort of method, like the scientific method, that would yield valid answers. What is a science question, and what is a religion question?



DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2008, 5:06 am

Well said. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins 'can you really believe that theologians have any expertise that enables them to answer questions that are too deep for science'


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15 Aug 2008, 5:33 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Well said. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins 'can you really believe that theologians have any expertise that enables them to answer questions that are too deep for science'
I heartily agree with that sentiment. Somehow, I just don't think sitting around denying science all day is going to make you qualified to answer questions they are not. Theologians don't require any sort of testing, logical thought, or any of the other wonderful self-correcting things of the scientific method. Why would being unscientific about the matter help?



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15 Aug 2008, 7:40 am

Argh... I can emphasise with both sides in this debate.


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15 Aug 2008, 8:09 am

I find fanatic atheists who try to convert me far more annoying than fanatic christians who try to convert me.


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Orwell
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15 Aug 2008, 9:01 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Darwin was a Christian, buddy. His book doesn't argue against God, and his book isn't good science, either. I've read it, and much of what he believed is not accepted by any serious scientist today- after all, he knew nothing about genetics, since he didn't have access to Mendel's research.


Ahh buddy no he was not, what the heck 'much of what he belieived is not acceted by any serious scientist'. Are you serious what planet are you on ! !

If you have ever read Origin of Species, and you have ever studied modern evolutionary biology, you will realize that much of what Darwin believed was in fact wrong. Come on, he even believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics! :lol: Nothing against him, with the knowledge available at the time he made some remarkable advances, but science has moved further in the past 150 years.


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benjimanbreeg
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15 Aug 2008, 9:09 am

It just occured to me today, who made us. Mother Nature. Its like we're all animals or species. What stops us from doing bad stuff(sins) morals, do animals have morals, unless they're taught?



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15 Aug 2008, 9:24 am

Orwell wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Darwin was a Christian, buddy. His book doesn't argue against God, and his book isn't good science, either. I've read it, and much of what he believed is not accepted by any serious scientist today- after all, he knew nothing about genetics, since he didn't have access to Mendel's research.


Ahh buddy no he was not, what the heck 'much of what he belieived is not acceted by any serious scientist'. Are you serious what planet are you on ! !

If you have ever read Origin of Species, and you have ever studied modern evolutionary biology, you will realize that much of what Darwin believed was in fact wrong. Come on, he even believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics! :lol: Nothing against him, with the knowledge available at the time he made some remarkable advances, but science has moved further in the past 150 years.


What astonishes me is how many fools on any side of the evolution screaming and pissing tournament keep referring to Darwin as the last word from science on the matter.



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15 Aug 2008, 9:54 am

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ...


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twoshots
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15 Aug 2008, 11:20 am

Malsane wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Well said. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins 'can you really believe that theologians have any expertise that enables them to answer questions that are too deep for science'
I heartily agree with that sentiment. Somehow, I just don't think sitting around denying science all day is going to make you qualified to answer questions they are not. Theologians don't require any sort of testing, logical thought, or any of the other wonderful self-correcting things of the scientific method. Why would being unscientific about the matter help?

Because non-falsifiable propositions aren't scientific and are therefore outside its sphere. Approaching them from the perspective that science is inherently the proper means of investigation necessarily gets you nowhere.


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15 Aug 2008, 12:37 pm

Kilroy wrote:
I was raised christian (of some sort) but didn't buy it for a minute
if God was real-and was as loving as everyone claims
he wouldn't be a he and sure as hell wouldn't let good people suffer


If faith were easy, everyone would have God in their lives. Faith is very difficult.



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15 Aug 2008, 1:07 pm

slowmutant wrote:
If faith were easy, everyone would have God in their lives. Faith is very difficult.


And it's widely known, that people consider most wise the books that are most difficult for understanding :lol:



Fnord
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15 Aug 2008, 1:14 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
I was raised christian (of some sort) but didn't buy it for a minute
if God was real-and was as loving as everyone claims
he wouldn't be a he and sure as hell wouldn't let good people suffer

If faith were easy, everyone would have God in their lives. Faith is very difficult.

Not if you train a person to believe while they are still very young. Between the ages of 3 and 8, a person is very impressionable. This is why in America, the Pledge of Allegiance, the Ten Commandments, Reward & Punishment (gifts to good kids & lumps of coal to bad; Heaven & Hell, et cetera...), racism, sexism, Atheism, religionism, and all manner of prejudices are crammed into kids' heads at an early age - to make sure that they will still have them when they grow up.

Faith can also be brought about in times of extreme duress - the "No Atheists In A Foxhole" myth comes to mind.


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slowmutant
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15 Aug 2008, 1:15 pm

Chaotica wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
If faith were easy, everyone would have God in their lives. Faith is very difficult.


And it's widely known, that people consider most wise the books that are most difficult for understanding :lol:


The question is, who is reading these books?



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15 Aug 2008, 1:17 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Chaotica wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
If faith were easy, everyone would have God in their lives. Faith is very difficult.

And it's widely known, that people consider most wise the books that are most difficult for understanding :lol:

The question is, who is reading these books?

The ignorant, the gullible, and the desperate.


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