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Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:12 pm

magz wrote:
What do other countries do so they don't have this problem to such catastrophic extent?

In Europe, there are plenty of various regulations of real estate market, aimed at preventing price of most basic living from skyrocketing. Europeans and Asians have been living with land shortages for millenia, it probably contributes towards different thinking about public and private space.
And there is universal healthcare so people don't get broke, in debt and unable to work all at once due to health problems.

That evil socialism? Well, low crime and nice, clean, well-maintained public space seems worth progressive taxes.
That's not exactly what we used to have in Soviet era, despite the same s-word.


I've also found that homelessness is not rare in Poland despite what you say. Their shelter situation looked to be the same as in the US, namely that it's just a place to sleep at night.

https://borgenproject.org/7-facts-about ... opulation/



magz
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04 Dec 2021, 3:16 pm

Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
What do other countries do so they don't have this problem to such catastrophic extent?

In Europe, there are plenty of various regulations of real estate market, aimed at preventing price of most basic living from skyrocketing. Europeans and Asians had been living with land shortages for millenia, it probably contributes towards different thinking about public and private space.
And there is universal healthcare so people don't get broke, in debt and unable to work all at once due to health problems.

That evil socialism? Well, low crime and nice, clean, well-maintained public space seems worth progressive taxes.
That's not exactly what we used to have in Soviet era, despite the same s-word.


Have you visited London?
Yes. I loved it - I could look as weird as I wanted to and no one gave a damn about it! Such a relief after 9 years in a small town.
Police people were nice and helped when I screwed up and lost my metro ticket.
One Pakistani guy catcalled me and tried to grab my hand - that's the whole amount of harassment I experienced during my week of exploring weirdest parts of this city at different times of day and night.

Axeman wrote:
The UK has all that Euro socialist garbage and that place has plenty of crime and poverty. Asia? As in Hong Kong? And China ain't no workers paradise. Japan is as Westernized and capitalist as it gets too. Oh don't forget India that nexus for covid, poverty, and online scammers. What's left of the Soviet Union is a mismanaged nightmare too.
There is no paradise on Earth. But some problems can be successfully adressed.
Have you been to any EU city?


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Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:21 pm

Forgot to mention the one Asian nation that really does have virtually none of this going on. Yeah Singapore, where all these thieves would be beaten like a pinyata in a Mexican kids birthday party.



funeralxempire
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04 Dec 2021, 3:43 pm

Axeman wrote:
Forgot to mention the one Asian nation that really does have virtually none of this going on. Yeah Singapore, where all these thieves would be beaten like a pinyata in a Mexican kids birthday party.


I mean, I guess from the standpoint of people who aren't homeless terrorizing the homeless so they hide is exactly the same as reducing homelessness.

Of course, objectively that does nothing about the problem, but hey one can pretend they've fixed the problem.

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


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Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:45 pm

Yeah one EU city I've been to had parks full of homeless drug addicts. Yeah Paris. They were shooting heroin right there in the open for all to see. I guess that's ok because the French government gives them needles to.do it



Last edited by Axeman on 04 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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04 Dec 2021, 3:52 pm

Axeman wrote:
Yeah one EU city I've been to had parks full of homeless drug addicts. Yeah Paris.
Yeah, Paris stinks. Funny how they maintain the myth...
Try Vienna.


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QuantumChemist
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04 Dec 2021, 3:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.



Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:56 pm

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Yeah one EU city I've been to had parks full of homeless drug addicts. Yeah Paris.
Yeah, Paris stinks.
Try Vienna.


Isn't it sinking?



Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:57 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Funeral isn't big on work. He wants more money for a shorter week.



magz
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04 Dec 2021, 3:57 pm

Axeman wrote:
Isn't it sinking?

Sinking? Am I missing some American English idiom?


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funeralxempire
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04 Dec 2021, 3:58 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


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Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 3:59 pm

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Isn't it sinking?

Sinking? Am I missing some American English idiom?


The water filled streets are causing structural collapse of the buildings.



Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 4:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


Their social support mental health whatever doesn't seem to be working for them where they are.



funeralxempire
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04 Dec 2021, 4:00 pm

Axeman wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Funeral isn't big on work. He wants more money for a shorter week.


How dare I suggest that full time work should pay a living wage or that productivity gains should be enjoyed by those who's labour produces the value.


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magz
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04 Dec 2021, 4:02 pm

Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
What do other countries do so they don't have this problem to such catastrophic extent?

In Europe, there are plenty of various regulations of real estate market, aimed at preventing price of most basic living from skyrocketing. Europeans and Asians have been living with land shortages for millenia, it probably contributes towards different thinking about public and private space.
And there is universal healthcare so people don't get broke, in debt and unable to work all at once due to health problems.

That evil socialism? Well, low crime and nice, clean, well-maintained public space seems worth progressive taxes.
That's not exactly what we used to have in Soviet era, despite the same s-word.


I've also found that homelessness is not rare in Poland despite what you say. Their shelter situation looked to be the same as in the US, namely that it's just a place to sleep at night.

https://borgenproject.org/7-facts-about ... opulation/

That's interesting because according to https://www.oecd.org/els/family/HC3-1-H ... lation.pdf homelessness in Poland has dropped not raised. Also, according to https://www.gov.pl/web/rodzina/wyniki-o ... dycja-2019 80% of Polish homeless population live in various institutions for the homeless. Of the remaining 20% (6,000 people) roughly half squat in abandoned buildings. The number of people living literally "on the streets" is given as 2,551 in 2019 - in a country of 38 million.

That fits better what I see in my city - occasional homeless people clustered in the strict city center, mainly around the railway station. An order of magnitude less of them than I remember from 25 years ago.


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funeralxempire
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04 Dec 2021, 4:02 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


Their social support mental health whatever doesn't seem to be working for them where they are.


I don't think I'm advocating for keeping things the way they are, I'm also opposed to forced relocation to what amounts to a modern day Dickensian workhouse.


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