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DW_a_mom
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04 Dec 2021, 4:06 pm

Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
If you wanted those "lazos" to do farm work for your profit, it definitely wouldn't work.
No reason to give up drugs when you're just being used for cheap labor and treated like sh!t.


I don't own any farms. However I would be in favor of funding such a project. It wouldn't be free housing. They certainly would work for it.


So there is something you are willing to use your money for, you just want to feel it meets your values and/or that the return on investment is sufficient.

When I propose the issue as a binary choice, give them a place to live (no strings attached) or have filthy streets, I’m being pragmatic. You have to invest money to make money, I assume you know that, right?

The homeless who can work usually do get help through existing programs. Enough people recognize the investment pay off, and the homeless who enter these programs don’t stay in them all that long before they are back on their own feet.

But what is your plan for the mentally insane and drug addicted? You talk about Singapore and corporal punishment, but two problems: someone mentally insane or drug addicted isn’t capable of changing their behavior regardless of the threat, and that option isn’t “free,” either. But it’s OK to you to spend the money on jails and guards because it fits your value system? That they experience pain and emotional confusion as the price of the free housing and meals the jail is giving them, since they aren’t working hard for it?

It would actually cost less to provide minimal space and food to them, than it costs to pay the police who would need to constantly sweep them off the streets, build the jails to house them, and pay the guards.

Are you seeing my math yet?


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Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 4:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


Their social support mental health whatever doesn't seem to be working for them where they are.


I don't think I'm advocating for keeping things the way they are, I'm also opposed to forced relocation to what amounts to a modern day Dickensian workhouse.


Are there no work houses? Are there no prisons?--Scrooge



Axeman
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04 Dec 2021, 4:11 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
If you wanted those "lazos" to do farm work for your profit, it definitely wouldn't work.
No reason to give up drugs when you're just being used for cheap labor and treated like sh!t.


I don't own any farms. However I would be in favor of funding such a project. It wouldn't be free housing. They certainly would work for it.


So there is something you are willing to use your money for, you just want to feel it meets your values and/or that the return on investment is sufficient.

When I propose the issue as a binary choice, give them a place to live (no strings attached) or have filthy streets, I’m being pragmatic. You have to invest money to make money, I assume you know that, right?

The homeless who can work usually do get help through existing programs. Enough people recognize the investment pay off, and the homeless who enter these programs don’t stay in them all that long before they are back on their own feet.

But what is your plan for the mentally insane and drug addicted? You talk about Singapore and corporal punishment, but two problems: someone mentally insane or drug addicted isn’t capable of changing their behavior regardless of the threat, and that option isn’t “free,” either. But it’s OK to you to spend the money on jails and guards because it fits your value system? That they experience pain and emotional confusion as the price of the free housing and meals the jail is giving them, since they aren’t working hard for it?

It would actually cost less to provide minimal space and food to them, than it costs to pay the police who would need to constantly sweep them off the streets, build the jails to house them, and pay the guards.

Are you seeing my math yet?


For those cases I prefer a third option that costs much, much less. China used it to end their opium addiction issues. But again we've become too soft for it.



DW_a_mom
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04 Dec 2021, 4:15 pm

Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
If you wanted those "lazos" to do farm work for your profit, it definitely wouldn't work.
No reason to give up drugs when you're just being used for cheap labor and treated like sh!t.


I don't own any farms. However I would be in favor of funding such a project. It wouldn't be free housing. They certainly would work for it.


So there is something you are willing to use your money for, you just want to feel it meets your values and/or that the return on investment is sufficient.

When I propose the issue as a binary choice, give them a place to live (no strings attached) or have filthy streets, I’m being pragmatic. You have to invest money to make money, I assume you know that, right?

The homeless who can work usually do get help through existing programs. Enough people recognize the investment pay off, and the homeless who enter these programs don’t stay in them all that long before they are back on their own feet.

But what is your plan for the mentally insane and drug addicted? You talk about Singapore and corporal punishment, but two problems: someone mentally insane or drug addicted isn’t capable of changing their behavior regardless of the threat, and that option isn’t “free,” either. But it’s OK to you to spend the money on jails and guards because it fits your value system? That they experience pain and emotional confusion as the price of the free housing and meals the jail is giving them, since they aren’t working hard for it?

It would actually cost less to provide minimal space and food to them, than it costs to pay the police who would need to constantly sweep them off the streets, build the jails to house them, and pay the guards.

Are you seeing my math yet?


For those cases I prefer a third option that costs much, much less. China used it to end their opium addiction issues. But again we've become too soft for it.


It isn’t about soft. It’s about our constitution and Bill of Rights. Perhaps you would like to read them?

Also, they did provide treatment to the addicts and mentally ill, albeit forced. How does that cost less?


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Pepe
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04 Dec 2021, 4:54 pm

Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
If a camp like this were set up where I live the police would clear it out instantly.
Moving the problem out of one's sight does not contribute to solving it.
It works here, as does the being able to shoot trespassers thing. I have seven guns not counting those that are antique replicas. My go to.would of course be my Mossberg 500.
That's exactly moving the problem out of your sight.


If you had to pay to house all those people you would be living there yourself. That is probably the exact goal of people like funeralxempire. Winston Churchill said socialism gives us only the virtue of shared misery. I couldn't agree more.


If you think we aren't paying in other ways for having those people un-housed, you are mistaken.

We are paying in decreased property values.

We are paying in lost business.

We are paying in policing and repair costs.

We are paying in lost labor.

We are paying through thefts and crime.

We are paying for children forced into foster care.


And there are punishments that would stop all that but weve grown too soft to use them. So I will continue to do everything I can to protect myself, my income, and my community.


Keep your AR 15 handy. <joke relating to another situation> :mrgreen:


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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04 Dec 2021, 4:55 pm

auntblabby wrote:
you can't beat sanity into the insane.


Or reason into unreasonable people. 8)

Axeman wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
having been homeless, i wouldn't wish it on anybody... except for a few magas, of course, to give them a taste of their own medicine that they likely won't get any other way.


I'm not for Trump. I voted Hillary and Biden and felt really bad about it but did it none the less.


There were no good choices.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


QuantumChemist
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04 Dec 2021, 5:12 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


Their social support mental health whatever doesn't seem to be working for them where they are.


I don't think I'm advocating for keeping things the way they are, I'm also opposed to forced relocation to what amounts to a modern day Dickensian workhouse.


Well I am opposed to just giving the homeless free housing and money to do what they like without working if they are able to do a job of some kind. It can be literally sweeping the streets and picking up litter around them. The homeless around here seem to be real good picking up junk and piling in areas to the point that it becomes a health hazard for all. Everyone needs to earn their keep in society if they are capable of doing so.

Look, I learned a good work ethic from a young age from my family. We were among the poorest in my rural town, as my father lost his job for a while. My mother was in training to become a teacher at the time. I often got bullied for being poorer than my other classmates. I know what it is like to be hungry because we had little choice on what to eat sometimes. (I hate the thought of mustard sandwiches to this day.) We had to make do with what we had until a better opportunity developed with hard work over months. If I can do it, why can they not do the same? The Ant And The Grasshopper fable has a learning lesson built in that some need to learn the hard way.



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04 Dec 2021, 5:17 pm

It sounds like you're guided by your ideological preferences so forgive me for not only considering solutions from the perspective of how ideologically agreeable you find them to be.


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04 Dec 2021, 5:19 pm

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
So many excuses as to why they can't work. Blah blah blah. QC is correct. It's not a free ride but it's better than sitting in filth and rats.
Have you ever been mentally ill?


People (not you) seem to be creating "binaries".
What else is new? :mrgreen:

There may be some who abuse "the system", but there are others who have simply been abused by life. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


QuantumChemist
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04 Dec 2021, 5:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It sounds like you're guided by your ideological preferences so forgive me for not only considering solutions from the perspective of how ideologically agreeable you find them to be.


Everyone capable must work to be a productive member of society. That is the end goal to solve the homeless issue whether you like it or not. Giving free housing and money without work attachments only prolongs the issue at hand.



Pepe
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04 Dec 2021, 5:34 pm

Axeman wrote:
magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Yeah one EU city I've been to had parks full of homeless drug addicts. Yeah Paris.
Yeah, Paris stinks.
Try Vienna.


Isn't it sinking?


One stinking and one sinking.
Sounds like American politics. 8O

Trump being the stinker and Biden sinking into dementia. :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Pepe
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04 Dec 2021, 5:43 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


If their social support network consists of drug-addicted people who help perpetuate the person's own addiction, perhaps it is a good thing to move them away. :scratch:

This is common procedure, over here in Australia, I have been told.
Parole, for drug-addicted people, is often dependent on the offender not associating with those who may entice them back into the drug scene, after they have gone through rehab.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


kraftiekortie
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04 Dec 2021, 6:38 pm

The High Plains is the area which Quantum is speaking of.

This area has been losing population for ages. It would be a boost for their economy to have these (now formerly) homeless people working in agriculture, meat packing, grain silos, places like that.

I feel these workers must be paid even if there’s little work(usually during the frequently frigid winters. And there must be oversight of these employers to prevent exploitation (it cannot be denied that this is a possibility).

This could be viable, if well thought-out.

Also: something like the CCC would be good, too. Job Corps for younger adults.



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04 Dec 2021, 6:56 pm

Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Realistically, if the goal is to actually reduce homelessness housing them has to be part of the solution.


Housing the homeless was always part of my solutions that I proposed, yet you automatically said that would not fix the issue because of location. Another other part is that they must learn how to work to become a productive member of society. How that is done depends on several choices that they make. If they choose to stay homeless by not working, that is their choice to make. It does have consequences though.


Forced relocation out to the middle of nowhere away from their social support network and without adequate mental health services close by isn't a solution and acting like if they don't appreciate this they can always kill themselves is an admission that you're not really that concerned about the outcome, which makes it seem much more likely the goal is to get cheap labour without any concerns over if the people who are being helped are actually helped.


If their social support network consists of drug-addicted people who help perpetuate the person's own addiction, perhaps it is a good thing to move them away. :scratch:

This is common procedure, over here in Australia, I have been told.
Parole, for drug-addicted people, is often dependent on the offender not associating with those who may entice them back into the drug scene, after they have gone through rehab.


Isolating them from bad influences might be helpful in some cases, but this strategy seems to rely on the assumption that their entire local social support network is harmful to them.

If I'm not mistaken that isolation is pursued through court orders and not forced relocation, am I right?


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funeralxempire
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04 Dec 2021, 6:59 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It sounds like you're guided by your ideological preferences so forgive me for not only considering solutions from the perspective of how ideologically agreeable you find them to be.


Everyone capable must work to be a productive member of society. That is the end goal to solve the homeless issue whether you like it or not. Giving free housing and money without work attachments only prolongs the issue at
hand.


Some homeless people are disabled people who haven't manged to successfully navigate the disability support system, those people would already have free housing if they were able to get the support they needed.

You're just spouting more talking points that attempts at implementing have so far failed producing the desired results. Sorry, you have to focus on results, not on what you feel sounds right.


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04 Dec 2021, 10:21 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It sounds like you're guided by your ideological preferences so forgive me for not only considering solutions from the perspective of how ideologically agreeable you find them to be.


Everyone capable must work to be a productive member of society. That is the end goal to solve the homeless issue whether you like it or not. Giving free housing and money without work attachments only prolongs the issue at
hand.


Some homeless people are disabled people who haven't manged to successfully navigate the disability support system, those people would already have free housing if they were able to get the support they needed.

You're just spouting more talking points that attempts at implementing have so far failed producing the desired results. Sorry, you have to focus on results, not on what you feel sounds right.


I am not including disabled into those needing to work to get housing or money. Notice that I said “everyone capable must work”. What they do depends upon what they can do. If they are not capable of a job, no matter how small, it simply does not apply to them. I stand by that statement.

You just hate the thought that capable people need to work to survive in this world. Even in Denmark, a very socialist society, everyone has a job to do. It is dependent on what their skills are to what they do. Some old ladies sweep their street as a job.

The difference is that every job is looked at with respect. I cannot control that here. If a job is too far beneath someone, they might want to improve their skills to get a different job that the seem to fit better in.

I used to clean a local printshop as a kid. Did I enjoy cleaning toilets, handling trash or picking up dog doo? No, it was part of the job though. At least I worked for my spending money, even though there were many classmates that did not have to. I found a better job and moved up the ladder when I could, as the owner was a strange pervert. It made me realize the value of work.