Trump finally reveals his Anti-Semitism.

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ASPartOfMe
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17 Oct 2022, 11:54 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because someone is Jewish doesn't mean they can't be critical of Israel. After all, Anti-Semites have questioned the loyalty of Jewish citizens out of a supposed dual loyalty. Therein lies the criticism of Trump for his assumption that Jewish Americans have that sort of dual loyalty.
My family are German Lutherans, and during the first world war, other Americans had questioned their loyalty because they had had fond memories of Germany passed down to them. But in both cases, we are first and foremost Americans, whether you're talking about my German Lutheran family, or Jewish Americans.

It seems in Trump's case, he was saying he didn't think they are as loyal to Israel as they should be. The question is, does such a comment equate to expressing hatred towards Jews?

No, but it is offensive.

When people say "****phobic" and "****ist" they often do not literally mean "fear of", "hatred of", or "feeling superior to" but holding prejudiced or biased views. It is an NT world, what can I say?

The Toxic Back Story to the Charge That Jews Have a Dual Loyalty
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The accusation that Jews have a “dual loyalty” — that they are not to be trusted because their true allegiance is to their religion, rather than to the country in which they live — dates back thousands of years. It animated the Nazis in 1930s Germany, when they accused Jewish people of being traitors and used charges of disloyalty to justify their arrests, persecutions and mass killings.

After the founding of Israel, the charge was that Jews were more loyal to Israel, the Jewish state, than to their own countries. The smear persists in various forms to this day: It is a common refrain of white supremacists who claim there is a secret plot orchestrated by Jews to replace white people through mass migration and racial integration.

“This has got a very bad, toxic back story to it,” said Aaron David Miller, a veteran Middle East peace negotiator who served in administrations of both political parties. “The words ‘disloyalty’ or ‘dual loyalty’ cannot appear within the same sentence as the words ‘Jews’ or ‘American Jews’ without legitimately raising the question of whether or not what is intended is to level that pernicious charge.”

As far back as the Middle Ages, Jews were tagged in their communities as inherently untrustworthy and suspect, incapable of being loyal to their ruler because of their ties to other Jews around the world. They were also viewed as a threat to the church because of their religious beliefs.

Later, as Jews settled throughout Europe, their loyalty was often in question. When Napoleon emancipated the Jews in France after the revolution, he said he would grant them full equality if they would reaffirm that they were subject to French law and would no longer consider themselves “a nation within a nation.” Jews agreed.

But the suspicions festered. In 1894, Alfred Dreyfus, a French military captain who was Jewish, was falsely accused of passing military secrets to the Germans and was convicted in a French military court.

“People were willing to believe it, even though the evidence from the very outset was shaky, because it made sense to them,” said Deborah E. Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University. “They had been so exposed to this stereotype, it had become so much the pivot point and the central element of anti-Semitism that Jews have other loyalties, that it seemed like it must be true, and they were ready to believe the worst.”

Professor Lipstadt said that was why when the Nazis began denigrating Jews, falsely accusing them of having betrayed their country and undermined its security, people were willing to believe it.

Stalin played on the same notion in 1946 during a speech in Moscow attacking Jewish writers as “rootless cosmopolitans” who were not fully loyal to the Soviet Union.

One reason that Jews have struggled to shake accusations of having dual loyalty is rooted in their own history. For centuries, Jews were regarded as a nation with their own distinct culture and laws, rather than merely a religious group.

“The tension within Judaism is, are we a people, a nation, a tribe, a religion?” said Steven R. Weisman, the author of “The Chosen Wars: How Judaism Became an American Religion” and a former New York Times reporter. “Jews have been uncomfortable seeing themselves as a people — even the ‘chosen people’ — and through various episodes throughout history, worked to show that they were just as patriotic and loyal as anyone else.”

During the Civil War, for instance, Mr. Weisman said, Jews joined the military in disproportionate numbers on both sides, in part to demonstrate their devotion to their country in the face of stereotypes that their allegiances were suspect.

As recently as 2000, when former Senator Joseph I. Lieberman became the first Jewish person to run for vice president, he faced questions about how his religion might affect his policy positions and leadership.


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18 Oct 2022, 12:04 am

Making a mountain out of a molehill occurs with virtually every comment Trump makes.

In this case it's obviously being done to dissuade Jewish Americans from voting for Trump, just in case he runs for president again.



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18 Oct 2022, 12:25 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Making a mountain out of a molehill occurs with virtually every comment Trump makes.

In this case it's obviously being done to dissuade Jewish Americans from voting for Trump, just in case he runs for president again.


Most weren't, anyhow.


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18 Oct 2022, 12:28 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.


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18 Oct 2022, 1:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.

It wasn't just the building. It was the people under attack in places of worship in Palestine. But again this whole thing has gone off the rails. My only point in all of it was that Christians have always taken a special interest in Israel up to present day Christian America.



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18 Oct 2022, 1:31 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Making a mountain out of a molehill occurs with virtually every comment Trump makes.

In this case it's obviously being done to dissuade Jewish Americans from voting for Trump, just in case he runs for president again.


Most weren't, anyhow.

Yeah but why take any chances?



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18 Oct 2022, 3:48 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.

It wasn't just the building. It was the people under attack in places of worship in Palestine. But again this whole thing has gone off the rails. My only point in all of it was that Christians have always taken a special interest in Israel up to present day Christian America.


Be that as it may, that particular fascination seems to have done nothing but cause the rest of us a major collective headache.


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18 Oct 2022, 4:01 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.

It wasn't just the building. It was the people under attack in places of worship in Palestine. But again this whole thing has gone off the rails. My only point in all of it was that Christians have always taken a special interest in Israel up to present day Christian America.


Be that as it may, that particular fascination seems to have done nothing but cause the rest of us a major collective headache.

Eschatology in general gives me a headache.

BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?



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18 Oct 2022, 11:20 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Making a mountain out of a molehill occurs with virtually every comment Trump makes.

In this case it's obviously being done to dissuade Jewish Americans from voting for Trump, just in case he runs for president again.

Goyimsplaining.

There was blowback when leftists used the dual loyalty trope.
Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, Jeremy Corbyn top list of worst antisemites
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Simon Wiesenthal Center disclosed its annual top ten list of the worst outbreaks of antisemitic and anti-Israel incidents, including lethal Jew-hatred in the US and Germany

American Muslim Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, America’s first Congresswoman of Palestinian descent, and IIhan Omar, a Muslim Congresswoman, earned spot number five for their “slander of Israel and Jews.” The Center wrote that Tlaib “launched her career in the US House of Representatives by slandering colleagues who supported a resolution seeking to weaken the anti-Israel, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement when she tweeted, ‘They forgot what country they represent.’

The Center said that Omar “similarly invoked the dual loyalty canard by declaring that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” Omar “echoed a pernicious antisemitic theme about ‘Jewish money’ invoked by Hitler and other antisemites,” stating that “it’s all about the Benjamins baby.” She also wrote on Twitter that US politicians are controlled by AIPAC.


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18 Oct 2022, 11:30 am

The “dual loyalty” thing is classic anti-Semitism.

If Biden would make such an allegation, I would say the same thing.



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18 Oct 2022, 11:34 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?

No I did not, tell me about it.


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18 Oct 2022, 11:44 am

He was.

Martin Luther was a stickler for his dogma.

Somehow, “Lutherans” became more moderate than most protestant sects over time.

But Martin Luther himself was rather an extreme person.

Lutherans don’t worship Martin Luther. They believe, in general, with his theology. Just like Calvinists don’t worship John Calvin.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 18 Oct 2022, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Oct 2022, 11:49 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The “dual loyalty” thing is classic anti-Semitism.


First, Trump is not accusing Jews of dual loyalty. He makes the opposite statement. Namely, that they SHOULD BE dual loyal, but they are NOT.

Secondly, antisemitism means accusing them of something negative. So the only way for dual loyalty statement to be antisemitic is if dual loyalty is viewed as a negative thing by the one making that statement. Trump, clearly, doesn't view it as a negative: he insists its a positive. So this, again, implies that its not antisemitism.

kraftiekortie wrote:
If Biden would make such an allegation, I would say the same thing.


If Biden were to make that statement I won't view it as antisemitic either.

I just don't view it as antisemitic, no matter who says it.



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18 Oct 2022, 11:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

Here is a relatively objective description of "Palestinians." They have been around since Biblical days and previously.


You are probably thinking of "Palestine" being around in Biblical days. Well, the word Palestine was just a synonym of the word Israel. There was no such thing as a distinction between Israel and Palestine up until 1948.

Besides, Palestine is incorrect name for Israel, because it was given by Roman conquerors who decided to name it after Philistines simply because Romans hated Jews and Philistines hated Jews too -- even though Philistines weren't around any more.

But in any case, regardless of ridiculous way that name came about, since it was established, fine. But again, it was referring to the whole Israel -- not its part. The whole notion of "Palestine being some section of Israel" or "Palestine being separate from Israel" was unheard of until after World War 2.

As far as Palestinians in the Biblical days, they were simply people who were living in Palestine. Since Palestine was the same thing as Israel, then I assume Jews were Palestinians. Again, a totally different usage of the word from today.

As far as today's Palestinians, they are historically mostly from Jordan and a little bit from Egypt and elsewhere. What is now considered Israel, as well as what is now considered Palestine, was empty when Jews came there. Yes, "technically" it was part of Muslim territory, but nobody was living there.

So you might say that Jews stole a bunch of empty land from Muslims, and built a bunch of stuff on that land. After Jews turned empty land into a first world country, then Muslims want it. Up until they did, somehow Muslims didn't want it, as evident by them not using it for all the centuries they had it.

There are arguments back and forth as to whether Muslims regard Jerusalem as holy land. Some point out that Jerusalim was not explicitly mentioned in the Koran. It is only referred to as "the land far off" that most Muslims believe refers to Jerusalem yet its up to interpretation.

Well, since we are not in the business of converting people out of their faith, then I would say "if they regard Jerusalem as a holy land, fine". But the question remains: why didn't they live there, much less build anything there, for all those centuries *until* Jews came over? So apparently it wasn't "too" important, at least not back then.

And, back to "historic Palestinians", the fact that nobody was living in today's Palestine implies that Palestinians aren't historically distinct from people living in Jordan or Egypt or other Muslim countries. Since they simply moved from those other territories INTO the Palestine some time in the mid-twentieth century.



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18 Oct 2022, 12:17 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Goyimsplaining

LOL



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18 Oct 2022, 12:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?

No I did not, tell me about it.

Quote:
“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.”

https://www.christianitytoday.com/histo ... mitic.html