Trump finally reveals his Anti-Semitism.

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ASPartOfMe
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18 Oct 2022, 12:32 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?

No I did not, tell me about it.

Quote:
“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.”

https://www.christianitytoday.com/histo ... mitic.html

My bad, I was confusing him with Martin Luther King.


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18 Oct 2022, 12:38 pm

QFT wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The “dual loyalty” thing is classic anti-Semitism.


First, Trump is not accusing Jews of dual loyalty. He makes the opposite statement. Namely, that they SHOULD BE dual loyal, but they are NOT.

Secondly, antisemitism means accusing them of something negative. So the only way for dual loyalty statement to be antisemitic is if dual loyalty is viewed as a negative thing by the one making that statement. Trump, clearly, doesn't view it as a negative: he insists its a positive. So this, again, implies that its not antisemitism.

kraftiekortie wrote:
If Biden would make such an allegation, I would say the same thing.


If Biden were to make that statement I won't view it as antisemitic either.
:nerdy:
I just don't view it as antisemitic, no matter who says it.

Actually he is criticizing Jews for not being loyal to him.

Repeating earlier points when people talk about anti semitism or racism they don’t just mean literally hating or discriminating against a group. It also means holding bigoted views or negative stereotypes about a group which is what Trump expressed.

The traditional dual loyality claim is about Jews being treacherous. Trump is not a traditional person so to him the idea that Jews should have dual loyalty is not a negative. Just because he does not view it as a negative does not mean it is not a negative. Most people view it as a negative and bad things usually happen to groups accused of that.

In conclusion, what Trump said was not anti semitic in the literal sense but it was offensive.


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18 Oct 2022, 1:42 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Trump is not a traditional person


Which is THE main thing I like about him.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
so to him the idea that Jews should have dual loyalty is not a negative.


Exactly my point

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Just because he does not view it as a negative does not mean it is not a negative. Most people view it as a negative and bad things usually happen to groups accused of that.


Well, maybe the fact that most people view it as a negative reflects antisemitism of said "most people", not Trump. Because it should not be viewed as a negative. Other groups of people are allowed to have national pride. Why not Jews?

Let me give you an example. I know some Jews who think that Jews shouldn't hold public office because it would fuel antisemitism (for example, they didn't like when Liberman was on a ticket with Gore, and they also didn't like that Zelensky is president of Ukraine). Now, I disagree with them. I think its great that Jews hold public office, because it REVERSES antisemitism. Yes, it can trigger antisemitic reactions short-term, but it can improve their social status long-term.

So who is antisemitic here? The people that elect/nominate Jews into public office, or the Jews that don't like it? I contend to say that Jews that are opposed to that are the antisemitic ones (I would call them self hating Jews). The people that vote for and/or nominate Jews are anything BUT antisemitic -- although aforementioned self-hating Jews would disagree.

Well, just like its not antisemitic to nominate Jews, its also not antisemitic to say that Jews should be more loyal to Israel. In both cases I would say its PHILO-semitic, although some self-hating Jews would disagree with me.



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18 Oct 2022, 2:21 pm

QFT wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Trump is not a traditional person


Which is THE main thing I like about him.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
so to him the idea that Jews should have dual loyalty is not a negative.


Exactly my point

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Just because he does not view it as a negative does not mean it is not a negative. Most people view it as a negative and bad things usually happen to groups accused of that.


Well, maybe the fact that most people view it as a negative reflects antisemitism of said "most people", not Trump. Because it should not be viewed as a negative. Other groups of people are allowed to have national pride. Why not Jews?

Let me give you an example. I know some Jews who think that Jews shouldn't hold public office because it would fuel antisemitism (for example, they didn't like when Liberman was on a ticket with Gore, and they also didn't like that Zelensky is president of Ukraine). Now, I disagree with them. I think its great that Jews hold public office, because it REVERSES antisemitism. Yes, it can trigger antisemitic reactions short-term, but it can improve their social status long-term.

So who is antisemitic here? The people that elect/nominate Jews into public office, or the Jews that don't like it? I contend to say that Jews that are opposed to that are the antisemitic ones (I would call them self hating Jews). The people that vote for and/or nominate Jews are anything BUT antisemitic -- although aforementioned self-hating Jews would disagree.

Well, just like its not antisemitic to nominate Jews, its also not antisemitic to say that Jews should be more loyal to Israel. In both cases I would say its PHILO-semitic, although some self-hating Jews would disagree with me.

Expecting Jews to be 100 percent loyal to America is not anti semitic per se, it is pro American. There is a distinction between support and loyalty. You can be loyal to Israel and not support all of her policies. You may support Israel and not be loyal to her. If you have duel loyalty get dual citizenship.

I do not know where you found Jews that do not want Jews to run for office. I had thought that was a 1930s and 1940s thing. I can envision woke Jews feeling that way because they think it is white adjacent people using their unearned white privilege, but not because of typical internalized anti semitism.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 18 Oct 2022, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Oct 2022, 2:25 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
There is a distinction between support and loyalty. You can be loyal to Israel and not support all of her policies.


That would be relevant if Israeli policies are bad. Trump obviously doesn't think so.

If someone thinks Israeli policies are bad, yet wonders why Jews don't support them, then it is antisemitic.

But if someone agrees with Israeli policies and invites Jews to join, then its not antisemitic.



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18 Oct 2022, 2:52 pm

QFT wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
There is a distinction between support and loyalty. You can be loyal to Israel and not support all of her policies.


That would be relevant if Israeli policies are bad. Trump obviously doesn't think so.

If someone thinks Israeli policies are bad, yet wonders why Jews don't support them, then it is antisemitic.

But if someone agrees with Israeli policies and invites Jews to join, then its not antisemitic.

Again I am agreeing with you that Trump’s statement was literally not anti Semitic, I think any statement that any group should have dual loyalty is offensive.

Columbus Day was this month. It is a day Italian-Americans celebrate pride in their heritage. In WWII the vast majority of Italian-Americans never gave a thought to fighting for Italy. Loyalty was pretty much 100 percent to America.


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18 Oct 2022, 3:39 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.

It wasn't just the building. It was the people under attack in places of worship in Palestine. But again this whole thing has gone off the rails. My only point in all of it was that Christians have always taken a special interest in Israel up to present day Christian America.


Be that as it may, that particular fascination seems to have done nothing but cause the rest of us a major collective headache.

Eschatology in general gives me a headache.

BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?


Of course Luther was, as was just about every Christian of that period.
Luther in his younger days had expressed sympathy and empathy for Jews, but as his physical ailments in later life caught up to his mental faculties, he began expressing the ugly Anti-Semitism he had been raised with. It should also be noted that just about everyone else ended up being scorched by Luther's wrath at the end of his life, not just Jews. None of Luther's fellow theologians defended his Anti-Semitism, and these particular writings were only really dug back up centuries later by the Nazis.
This is not to excuse Luther's Anti-Semitism, but to explain why.


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18 Oct 2022, 3:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
He was.

Martin Luther was a stickler for his dogma.

Somehow, “Lutherans” became more moderate than most protestant sects over time.

But Martin Luther himself was rather an extreme person.

Lutherans don’t worship Martin Luther. They believe, in general, with his theology. Just like Calvinists don’t worship John Calvin.


As a Lutheran, I thank you. 8)


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18 Oct 2022, 3:45 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In 1009 Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem as part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine. Christian Europe reacted with shock which lead to the Crusades starting in 1095.


As cruel and hateful as that was, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies. I can't see Jesus advocating such action as going to war over a church building.

It wasn't just the building. It was the people under attack in places of worship in Palestine. But again this whole thing has gone off the rails. My only point in all of it was that Christians have always taken a special interest in Israel up to present day Christian America.


Be that as it may, that particular fascination seems to have done nothing but cause the rest of us a major collective headache.

Eschatology in general gives me a headache.

BTW you know that Martin Luther was rabidly antisemitic, right?


It can be argued that the only reason why modern evangelicals are Pro-Israel today is because they buy into the End-of-Days theology, and want to stay on God's good side, and not because they ever had felt any empathy for Jews.


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18 Oct 2022, 3:55 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
He was.

Martin Luther was a stickler for his dogma.

Somehow, “Lutherans” became more moderate than most protestant sects over time.

But Martin Luther himself was rather an extreme person.

Lutherans don’t worship Martin Luther. They believe, in general, with his theology. Just like Calvinists don’t worship John Calvin.

That's good, because Calvin was rather extreme as well.



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18 Oct 2022, 4:02 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
It can be argued that the only reason why modern evangelicals are Pro-Israel today is because they buy into the End-of-Days theology, and want to stay on God's good side, and not because they ever had felt any empathy for Jews.

Not being pro-Israel can be seen as being anti-Israel and therefore anti-Semitic. Also what the Nazis did to the Jews plays a big part in it.



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18 Oct 2022, 4:27 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It can be argued that the only reason why modern evangelicals are Pro-Israel today is because they buy into the End-of-Days theology, and want to stay on God's good side, and not because they ever had felt any empathy for Jews.

Not being pro-Israel can be seen as being anti-Israel and therefore anti-Semitic. Also what the Nazis did to the Jews plays a big part in it.


But why the change in attitude toward Judaism and Jews among evangelicals, since the founding of Israel, which they believe works into their interpretation of Revelations? Methinks their support for Israel is dependent on staying On God's good side.


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18 Oct 2022, 4:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It can be argued that the only reason why modern evangelicals are Pro-Israel today is because they buy into the End-of-Days theology, and want to stay on God's good side, and not because they ever had felt any empathy for Jews.

Not being pro-Israel can be seen as being anti-Israel and therefore anti-Semitic. Also what the Nazis did to the Jews plays a big part in it.

But why the change in attitude toward Judaism and Jews among evangelicals, since the founding of Israel, which they believe works into their interpretation of Revelations?

Like I said what the Nazis did to the Jews played a big part in getting Israel re-established as a nation in 1948. Which seems to tie into several passages in both the OT and NT.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Methinks their support for Israel is dependent on staying On God's good side.

That's what I said a couple of days ago.

Matrix Glitch wrote:
In a nutshell the Protestant view I'm taking about is absolute support for Israel, because the belief is if America turns its back on supporting Israel, God will be greatly displeased.



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18 Oct 2022, 4:56 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It can be argued that the only reason why modern evangelicals are Pro-Israel today is because they buy into the End-of-Days theology, and want to stay on God's good side, and not because they ever had felt any empathy for Jews.

Not being pro-Israel can be seen as being anti-Israel and therefore anti-Semitic. Also what the Nazis did to the Jews plays a big part in it.

But why the change in attitude toward Judaism and Jews among evangelicals, since the founding of Israel, which they believe works into their interpretation of Revelations?

Like I said what the Nazis did to the Jews played a big part in getting Israel re-established as a nation in 1948. Which seems to tie into several passages in both the OT and NT.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Methinks their support for Israel is dependent on staying On God's good side.

That's what I said a couple of days ago.

Matrix Glitch wrote:
In a nutshell the Protestant view I'm taking about is absolute support for Israel, because the belief is if America turns its back on supporting Israel, God will be greatly displeased.


I'd rather base my support of Israel on a friendship with another pluralistic democracy rather than what I believe is an errant interpretation of Revelations, a book that possibly shouldn't have even been canonized.


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18 Oct 2022, 9:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I'd rather base my support of Israel on a friendship with another pluralistic democracy rather than what I believe is an errant interpretation of Revelations, a book that possibly shouldn't have even been canonized.

There's more scripture tied into it than Revelation. We should've been having this conversation here



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18 Oct 2022, 10:02 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'd rather base my support of Israel on a friendship with another pluralistic democracy rather than what I believe is an errant interpretation of Revelations, a book that possibly shouldn't have even been canonized.

There's more scripture tied into it than Revelation. We should've been having this conversation here


I - and my theology - aren't much given to millennialism.


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