Whoopi Goldberg suspended for racist comments

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cyberdad
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23 Mar 2023, 2:17 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
How you self-identify is up to you.

Correct. Just because "woke" people are trying to change definitions for weaponization purposes does not mean I am obligated to go along with it. Race is all about skin color and other physical features. The oldest political trick is wearing people down by making simple things complicated and keep on changing meanings.


Intelligent people don't much stock in phenotypes AS



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23 Mar 2023, 11:09 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
How you self-identify is up to you.

Correct. Just because "woke" people are trying to change definitions for weaponization purposes does not mean I am obligated to go along with it. Race is all about skin color and other physical features. The oldest political trick is wearing people down by making simple things complicated and keep on changing meanings.


So...

You are in favor of preserving racism.

But only if its the American style of racism in which Jews are considered White, and not European style racism in which Jews are considered nonwhite...because...you want to be lumped with the privileged race?

But at the same time you dont want brown folks to hate you for BEING CONSIDERED White? Because you want to have your cake and eat it too? Get the benefits of being in the privileged race, but avoid the resentment for being in the privileged race?

Is that fair summation of what youre trying to say?



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23 Mar 2023, 11:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
How you self-identify is up to you.

Correct. Just because "woke" people are trying to change definitions for weaponization purposes does not mean I am obligated to go along with it. Race is all about skin color and other physical features. The oldest political trick is wearing people down by making simple things complicated and keep on changing meanings.


Intelligent people don't much stock in phenotypes AS

You have used the word white in regard to people. You have said why you think my definition of race is wrong. What is yours?

naturalplastic wrote:
So...

You are in favor of preserving racism.

But only if its the American style of racism in which Jews are considered White, and not European style racism in which Jews are considered nonwhite...because...you want to be lumped with the privileged race?

But at the same time you dont want brown folks to hate you for BEING CONSIDERED White? Because you want to have your cake and eat it too? Get the benefits of being in the privileged race, but avoid the resentment for being in the privileged race?

Is that fair summation of what youre trying to say?

Racism is racism. What I am saying is “American Racism” in general is the lesser of two evils for Jews. The lesser of two evils is still evil which is not something I am favor of preserving.

I can’t believe I really need to say this but it is obvious that I have to. I don’t want anybody to hate anybody on the basis of skin color. And hating me for being considered white is not a black thing. Plenty of white people hate white people. Plenty of white people throw around the term “whiteness”. It is not a positive word. I have separate thread coming up about ‘White Fragility’ author Robin DeAngelo. It does not make a significant difference to me if the person who hates me for being white is white or a person of color.

Off Topic
I disagree with the newer definition of privilege that has gained currency in the last few decades. It views a real problem in an ass backwards way. The problem is racism, discrimination against black people. Black people are more likely treated unfairly in life. White people are more likely to be treated fairly and yes have unfair privileges. Conflating being treated fairly with being “privileged” a term most often considered a pejorative is a problem. Putting “White” in front of “Privilege” negates individual circumstances.


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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2023, 1:38 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Plenty of white people hate white people. Plenty of white people throw around the term “whiteness”. It is not a positive word. I have separate thread coming up about ‘White Fragility’ author Robin DeAngelo. It does not make a significant difference to me if the person who hates me for being white is white or a person of color.


I don't know about America, but here in Australia "white" isn't a pejorative



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24 Mar 2023, 12:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Plenty of white people hate white people. Plenty of white people throw around the term “whiteness”. It is not a positive word. I have separate thread coming up about ‘White Fragility’ author Robin DeAngelo. It does not make a significant difference to me if the person who hates me for being white is white or a person of color.


I don't know about America, but here in Australia "white" isn't a pejorative

White is mostly is not a pejorative here unless it attached to pejoratives like "privilege" and "fragility". "Whiteness" is a term describing negatives.


But you did not answer my question. You disagree with my definition of "white" as based on skin color. How do you define it?


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24 Mar 2023, 7:02 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
But you did not answer my question. You disagree with my definition of "white" as based on skin color. How do you define it?


It's highly contextual. We both know where/why/how the term originated back in the old colonial/slavery days to conveniently differentiate colonial masters from their "docile" subjugated bonded subjects (whether bonded labour in the case of India or African slaves).

However in the modern world it seems to be a convenient tool for social purposes. The proof of the pudding seems to be in the eating, A person from Sweden who speaks minimal English can get off a plane and assimilate straight away in our societies overnight. Whereas a indigenous person with dark skin who has lived on the land for 10s of thousands of years are seen as "other",
Why? it all seems to boil down to phenotype.

The fragility DiAngelo is talking about has nothing to do with any actual self-hatred (we both know right wing claims about whites hating themselves is a fabricated lie) but has to do with the fragility of self-identity.

I have said plenty of times on this forum that if "white identity" is so robust then why do people get so defensive over their children being exposed to other cultures, people and ideas? why the need to re-affirm "I am white" if this is a real identity.

The answer is simple. It's not real. It was manufactured. It's like people who choose to wear red clothes calling themselves red people. As if the clothes they wear make them a different identity.



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24 Mar 2023, 7:48 pm

I don't like Whoopi Goldberg because she does big burps and farts on live TV. I get grossed out when people do that in public or on TV.


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24 Mar 2023, 11:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
But you did not answer my question. You disagree with my definition of "white" as based on skin color. How do you define it?


It's highly contextual. We both know where/why/how the term originated back in the old colonial/slavery days to conveniently differentiate colonial masters from their "docile" subjugated bonded subjects (whether bonded labour in the case of India or African slaves).

However in the modern world it seems to be a convenient tool for social purposes. The proof of the pudding seems to be in the eating, A person from Sweden who speaks minimal English can get off a plane and assimilate straight away in our societies overnight. Whereas a indigenous person with dark skin who has lived on the land for 10s of thousands of years are seen as "other",
Why? it all seems to boil down to phenotype.

The fragility DiAngelo is talking about has nothing to do with any actual self-hatred (we both know right wing claims about whites hating themselves is a fabricated lie) but has to do with the fragility of self-identity.

I have said plenty of times on this forum that if "white identity" is so robust then why do people get so defensive over their children being exposed to other cultures, people and ideas? why the need to re-affirm "I am white" if this is a real identity.

The answer is simple. It's not real. It was manufactured. It's like people who choose to wear red clothes calling themselves red people. As if the clothes they wear make them a different identity.

DeAngelo telling people of color to stay away from people that look like her is the self-hate I am referring to.

I don't go around all-day reaffirming that I am white. I don't have to because people will see that. I feel about being white as I do about being autistic neither pride nor shame because I had nothing to do with it. I am just talking about it here to explain why I think Whoopie Goldberg said Jews are white.

I feel about people saying white is a fake race as I do about people saying autism is a fake disease.


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25 Mar 2023, 2:38 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I feel about people saying white is a fake race as I do about people saying autism is a fake disease.

Autism is real....white is not.



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25 Mar 2023, 2:43 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
DeAngelo telling people of color to stay away from people that look like her is the self-hate I am referring to.


Di Angelo is upper middle class and married to a white man, has white children, who go to a private white school, they live in a white suburb and work in a predominantly white university with white staff and (I am guessing) she mixes socially with predominantly white people

Please point out the "white hate" ?? please stop and use your brain



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25 Mar 2023, 8:50 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
DeAngelo telling people of color to stay away from people that look like her is the self-hate I am referring to.


Di Angelo is upper middle class and married to a white man, has white children, who go to a private white school, they live in a white suburb and work in a predominantly white university with white staff and (I am guessing) she mixes socially with predominantly white people

Please point out the "white hate" ?? please stop and use your brain

This is pretty simple. She thinks people of color should stay away from white people. Anybody who thinks that no matter what skin color or who they hang out with loathes white people. Her probably hanging out with people she hates is an indication of some sort of masochism or mental illness.

We say that about autistic people who think autistic people should not have children or are useless burdens to society.


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25 Mar 2023, 3:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I feel about people saying white is a fake race as I do about people saying autism is a fake disease.

Autism is real....white is not.

Autism is a category of people based on an arbitrary set of behaviors some find useful and others think are fake or harmful.
Race are categories of people based on an arbitrary set of physical features some find useful and others think are fake or harmful.

Similar to "white" "autism" has racist roots. Most of us know about Hans Asperger but it was going on before.
The Eugenicist Origins of Autism Prior to Hans Asperger
Quote:
Yes, the term “autism” had been in use since Eugene Bleuler coined it in 1908, and “autistic” had been passingly used as a descriptive term (e.g. by Sukharevra in 1925).

The second thing to note is that, even non-withstanding the first point, the term “autism” itself was coined by a rabid, racist eugenicist Eugene Bleuler.

And, before anyone tries to defend him by suggesting that this was just the prevailing view of his time, it wasn’t. In fact, he had been lamenting the actually prevailing views of his time for forcing him to keep his patients alive.

In fact, Bleuler, an incredibly influential psychiatrist (who also coined “schizophrenia”) was arguably part of the reason eugenics became a prevailing ideology. There were no Nazis pressuring him into this (as some argue may have been the case with Asperger); rather, he was part of the pressure.

So when are you going to tell all of us to identify as we please but note intelligent people don't choose racist terms for arbitrary conditions?


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25 Mar 2023, 5:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
This is pretty simple. She thinks people of color should stay away from white people.


Wait! I'm not defending DiAngelo but is that what she is really saying?
Could it be you are taking it out of context?

Back in the 1960s post-MLK the social engineering focused on building bridges. Psychological experiments demonstrated white children learn to not adopt prejudice from their white parents when they spent time with PoC for extended periods of times where the children were encouraged to do group activities with common goals. Sport was a big example (this was the Shariff experiments).

I see no evidence that black (or any other POCs for that matter) object to working with, going to school, socialising with white people. Why would Di Angelo encourage black people to go back to Jim Crow?

If you actually look at what's happening in the US, UK and Australia, it's white families who vote with their feet. They run when multiculturalism comes to their neighborhood, It's called White flight. When younger whites want to live in inner city but not live in the "hood" developers drive out long time residents and replace with highly expensive inner city housing which are occupied by middle class whites. it';s called gentrification.

You have it the wrong way around.



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25 Mar 2023, 10:11 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
This is pretty simple. She thinks people of color should stay away from white people.


Wait! I'm not defending DiAngelo but is that what she is really saying?
Could it be you are taking it out of context?

Back in the 1960s post-MLK the social engineering focused on building bridges. Psychological experiments demonstrated white children learn to not adopt prejudice from their white parents when they spent time with PoC for extended periods of times where the children were encouraged to do group activities with common goals. Sport was a big example (this was the Shariff experiments).

I see no evidence that black (or any other POCs for that matter) object to working with, going to school, socialising with white people. Why would Di Angelo encourage black people to go back to Jim Crow?

If you actually look at what's happening in the US, UK and Australia, it's white families who vote with their feet. They run when multiculturalism comes to their neighborhood, It's called White flight. When younger whites want to live in inner city but not live in the "hood" developers drive out long time residents and replace with highly expensive inner city housing which are occupied by middle class whites. it';s called gentrification.

You have it the wrong way around.


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25 Mar 2023, 10:24 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
This is pretty simple. She thinks people of color should stay away from white people.


Wait! I'm not defending DiAngelo but is that what she is really saying?
Could it be you are taking it out of context?

Back in the 1960s post-MLK the social engineering focused on building bridges. Psychological experiments demonstrated white children learn to not adopt prejudice from their white parents when they spent time with PoC for extended periods of times where the children were encouraged to do group activities with common goals. Sport was a big example (this was the Shariff experiments).

I see no evidence that black (or any other POCs for that matter) object to working with, going to school, socialising with white people. Why would Di Angelo encourage black people to go back to Jim Crow?

If you actually look at what's happening in the US, UK and Australia, it's white families who vote with their feet. They run when multiculturalism comes to their neighborhood, It's called White flight. When younger whites want to live in inner city but not live in the "hood" developers drive out long time residents and replace with highly expensive inner city housing which are occupied by middle class whites. it';s called gentrification.

You have it the wrong way around.


Robin DeAngelo wrote:
People of color need to get away from White people and have some community with each other," she said in the March 1 webinar entitled, "Racial Justice: The Next Frontier."

What I want to do is create a culture that actually spits out those who are resistant,"

She did not say people of color people should stay away from "some white people", or "racists", or "MAGA",s etc. She said, "White People"(I guess she did not get the memo that "White people" are not a real thing). Isn't this what the wokes call "Whitesplaining"?

And I have known what gentrification and white flight have meant for decades. White Flight was oft used on the news here back in the 60s


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26 Mar 2023, 12:26 am

I haven't read the book but I have read her interviews. Di Angelo's primary point is that because white people actually don't want to address white privilege that their sense of identity is "fragile"

Her words
We live a very insular experience. We have rarely ever been challenged in our racial worldview. We move through a society in which racial inequality is the very bedrock in racial comfort as white people and we are rarely ever out of our racial comfort zones.

Most white people go cradle to grave in racial segregation. Most white people do not have authentic sustained relationships across race, particularly with black people. I’m not talking about acquaintances. Show me your wedding album. That is a truer measure of who is in your friendship circle and sitting at your table.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/07/heal ... index.html