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Fnord
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06 Jun 2022, 12:18 pm

Despite a continuing wave of deadly mass shootings in the U.S., nearly half of Republicans say that they are something that must be accepted as part of a "free society".

In the wake of shootings in Uvalde, Texas, and Buffalo, New York, a new poll conducted by CBS News and YouGov surveyed Americans about their thoughts on guns and gun control.  One question, in particular, asked respondents if they felt that mass shootings are an unavoidable by-product of a "free society" or if they believed the issue could be tackled.

Nearly half of all respondents who identified as Republicans said that shootings like those in Uvalde and Buffalo are "unfortunately something we have to accept as part of a free society."  By comparison, 85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."


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9989cma
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06 Jun 2022, 12:28 pm

Predictable. Probably many of the Democratic Party and public feel the same but don't say it.



Fnord
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06 Jun 2022, 12:29 pm

9989cma wrote:
Predictable. Probably many of the Democratic Party and public feel the same but don't say it.
That is speculation.

The results of the poll are not at all surprising.



r00tb33r
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06 Jun 2022, 12:51 pm

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85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."


I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.


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Fnord
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06 Jun 2022, 12:54 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
Quote:
85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."
I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.
Same here.  A wise man once said, "I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."  This crisis is being prolonged by GOP "diplomacy" (e.g., filibuster) so that Big Business can make profit off the blood of children.



r00tb33r
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06 Jun 2022, 1:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Quote:
85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."
I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.
Same here.  A wise man once said, "I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."  This crisis is being prolonged by GOP "diplomacy" (e.g., filibuster) so that Big Business can make profit off the blood of children.

Exactly what constructive solution to mass shootings is GOP holding back? My point is, I haven't seen any.


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Fnord
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06 Jun 2022, 1:39 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Quote:
85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."
I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.
Same here.  A wise man once said, "I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."  This crisis is being prolonged by GOP "diplomacy" (e.g., filibuster) so that Big Business can make profit off the blood of children.
Exactly what constructive solution to mass shootings is GOP holding back? My point is, I haven't seen any.
Bills introducing: heavier enforcement of waiting periods and background checks; restrictions against caliber, rate of fire, and magazine capacity; restrictions against weapons that could be modified for automatic operation; licensing and age restrictions; denial of firearm ownership to any convicted felon or person convicted of a violent crime, whether misdemeanor or felony; limiting the number of firearms and amount of ammunition a single household may keep; severe penalties for anyone found in possession of a "ghost gun", a stolen firearm, and/or a firearm with an altered, missing, or obliterated serial number; prohibition against unlicensed firearm possession; and prohibition against firearm possession outside one's own home.

. . . every one of which the GOP has "shot down".



roronoa79
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06 Jun 2022, 2:14 pm

Gun control legislation is not going to pass Congress. Even if it did, guns would be obtained illegally or something else would be used. We would go from shootings to stabbings and bombings.

If we want to address the underlying problems, we need to greatly increase the availability of mental healthcare. Schools need to be better equipped to prevent bullying. Put mental health professionals in every school. Parents might need to be straight-up forced into family counselling to address the issues at home that also motivate these killers. School counselors can only do so much when emotionally neglectful parents refuse to do anything to address their children's mental health needs.

But neither party is going to vote for things because that costs Taxpayer Money (horrors! Horror upon horrors!) And both parties would rather do nothing than goes against the capitalist propaganda they have spoon-fed to their constituents for the last 150+ years. Parents would rather risk their children dying than spend Taxpayer Money on real solutions to the causes of this problem.

Why spend it on that when you can, I don't know, spend the money on an addition to your home? Or growing a business? Or a vacation or car? Or whatever these self-important capitalist morons think is a better use of their money bc Taxation is Eeeeeeevil. The government being used by the public as a means of addressing these issues is heretical to the Standard American Capitalist Taxpayer.

(Disclaimer that I say all this as a pro-gun anarcho-socialist. The government is awful but we can still force it to do things that benefit the public.)

Either find a solution and be willing to actually pay taxes for that solution or risk losing your guns to a narrow-sighted Democrat congressional majority. Your choice.


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Fnord
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06 Jun 2022, 2:17 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
Gun control legislation is not going to pass Congress. Even if it did, guns would be obtained illegally or something else would be used. We would go from shootings to stabbings and bombings.

If we want to address the underlying problems, we need to greatly increase the availability of mental healthcare. . .

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r00tb33r
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06 Jun 2022, 3:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Quote:
85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."
I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.
Same here.  A wise man once said, "I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."  This crisis is being prolonged by GOP "diplomacy" (e.g., filibuster) so that Big Business can make profit off the blood of children.
Exactly what constructive solution to mass shootings is GOP holding back? My point is, I haven't seen any.
Bills introducing: heavier enforcement of waiting periods and background checks; restrictions against caliber, rate of fire, and magazine capacity; restrictions against weapons that could be modified for automatic operation; licensing and age restrictions; denial of firearm ownership to any convicted felon or person convicted of a violent crime, whether misdemeanor or felony; limiting the number of firearms and amount of ammunition a single household may keep; severe penalties for anyone found in possession of a "ghost gun", a stolen firearm, and/or a firearm with an altered, missing, or obliterated serial number; prohibition against unlicensed firearm possession; and prohibition against firearm possession outside one's own home.

. . . every one of which the GOP has "shot down".

Calibers? Rate of fire?
Please explain. What rate of fire does a semi-automatic have?
Caliber? The cartridge typically involved in these shootings is .223/5.56x51 which is about the .22 diameter used to shoot squirrels, and they aren't about to ban or restrict .22s. Some places around the world tried banning "military" calibers, which resulted in arms manufacturers creating and adopting new civilian calibers with similar performance. That approach won't work, it's been tried.

There is already really steep punishment for destruction and alterations of serial number markings, but that's not even a valid point as it would be illegal to sell such a firearm, and there is no point in destroying the serial number if you purchased a firearm with a serial number where the sale was reported. Real ghost guns were "80% lower receivers" which were basically an unfinished lower receiver that would normally be serialized and reported as a sale, to be finished by an individual for personal use with some basic tools. These are not legal to be re-sold without first applying for an ATF tax stamp and engraving a serial number, at that point the firearm becomes accounted for by the government. Yes, it is legal to produce your own firearm for personal use, and no, none of the school shooting involved such a firearm. We have just banned the sale of 80% lowers, so that's history now anyway.

Prohibition against unlicensed firearm possession? It's a constitutional right, there are no licenses for constitutional rights. If you drive a car it's not a right, it's a privilege, you're licensed for it. There is nothing in the constitution that states that it's your right to drive a car.
Good luck striking an item from the constitutional bill of rights.
There are however limitations to that right, NFA restricts what types of firearms you may possess without a license.

Modification for automatic operation? That's already a very long jail term since 1934 when these were given classification under the NFA. Ease of modification is subjective, so that's not likely to ever materialize into additional laws. This was not involved in any of the school shootings anyway.

There are already background checks on the firearms that were involved in school shootings, and there is no evidence that longer waiting periods will end school shootings. Go ahead with that, I don't see it making a difference.

Felons can't legally possess firearms.

C'mon man, I know you're capable of better research than that.

Fnord wrote:
. . . every one of which the GOP has "shot down".
That's not a constructive statement when you support it by repeating popular myths.

How about I ask you this, small arms pretty much reached their final form we see today post-WW2 in the 1950s. The guns we're talking about aren't new. Why are we having a school shooting problem now? What changed? Perhaps the real problem and it's potential solution is uncovered by understand what's different now. I do have a theory.

In another recent thread I stated what firearms legislation I think can pass in near future, and no, I don't believe it will end school shootings.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Jun 2022, 6:35 pm

Let us hear YOUR idea about how to stop school shootings.

I hope you agree that the vicious cycle of school shootings MUST END.



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07 Jun 2022, 6:50 pm

Am fully believing the cause is the person holding the gun ……the root of the cause… needs to be addressed, I feel
Not the tool used ! Imho. Spend funds in favour of helping the person . A intellectual approach , might give us a long
Term solution . This needed to be addressed years ago instead of lining politicians pockets .Imagine If NRA monies went healthcare instead of lobbying ?


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r00tb33r
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07 Jun 2022, 10:28 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Let us hear YOUR idea about how to stop school shootings.

I hope you agree that the vicious cycle of school shootings MUST END.

School shooters seem to be young. Other mass shooters seem to not pick schools.

Like all other kids (where I was growing up) I had to undergo mental and developmental evaluation to start school.
The screener psychologist found me intellectually fit for school per my official record but warned my mom about my social development and my tendency toward self-isolation. In the early 90s they weren't diagnosing with autism or ADHD. My mom got mad at the psychologist, and chose to ignore that. She got additional warnings when I kept getting rejected by entrance committees at public schools (which is improper), them citing that I could be too disruptive, suggesting I instead seek enrollment at a special needs school. Eventually, a school was found that agreed to accept me, where I was doing fine, more or less. It was abnormally far away for a public school.

I don't recall doing that again, which perhaps would have helped me a lot later on. I struggled much socially in the later years in school, so likely it would have been much help to me and any other young people who struggle socially or with other mental ailments. All of the school shooters seemed to have had difficulties with social development. Yeah, periodic mental health screenings in schools are the solution.

For me that could have meant getting diagnosed early and receiving help I needed, as I struggled much as a young adult, and was only able to rehabilitate my life on my own by studying autism and developing ways to overcome my challenges.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Jun 2022, 10:43 pm

Yep. I think the above should be part of the program.



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08 Jun 2022, 4:40 pm

GOP values

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08 Jun 2022, 8:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Quote:
85 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of Independents said mass shootings are "something we can prevent and stop if we really tried."
I haven't seen a single constructive proposal to address any of it. Empty talk.
Same here.  A wise man once said, "I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."  This crisis is being prolonged by GOP "diplomacy" (e.g., filibuster) so that Big Business can make profit off the blood of children.
Exactly what constructive solution to mass shootings is GOP holding back? My point is, I haven't seen any.
Bills introducing: heavier enforcement of waiting periods and background checks; restrictions against caliber, rate of fire, and magazine capacity; restrictions against weapons that could be modified for automatic operation; licensing and age restrictions; denial of firearm ownership to any convicted felon or person convicted of a violent crime, whether misdemeanor or felony; limiting the number of firearms and amount of ammunition a single household may keep; severe penalties for anyone found in possession of a "ghost gun", a stolen firearm, and/or a firearm with an altered, missing, or obliterated serial number; prohibition against unlicensed firearm possession; and prohibition against firearm possession outside one's own home.

. . . every one of which the GOP has "shot down".

5.56/.223 are pipsqueaks and is not even suitable for deer in many states because its so weak.It is illegal to hunt deer with the .223 in many states and frankly I wish it was illegal to hunt deer in every state with the .223 but thats just me.