DNA of 13 Neanderthals Reveals Ancient Community

Page 1 of 1 [ 10 posts ] 

AnonymousAnonymous
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 65,564
Location: Portland, Oregon

19 Oct 2022, 4:05 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/oct/19/dna-of-13-neanderthals-reveals-exciting-snapshot-of-ancient-community


_________________
Silly NTs, I have Aspergers, and having Aspergers is gr-r-reat!


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,897

20 Oct 2022, 7:35 pm

The perceptions of neanderthals has changed over time. In the 20th century they were depicted as brutish and ape-like due to their prominent brow ridge (this coincided with the European science of phrenology (now debunked) which purported skull shape could prove certain people (insert PoC, criminals and the intellectually feeble) were inherently inferior.

Archaeological evidence carefully collected over time suggests Neanderthals were no different to modern humans in almost every facet of social life. Its becoming apparent that rather than any source of inferiority, the low populations of Neanderthals were simply absorbed by the incoming (and numerically superior) waves of modern humans



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,342
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

20 Oct 2022, 11:39 pm

Our DNA confirms we had intermixed with Neanderthals and other archaic humans. Our prehistoric cousins live on in us.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,897

21 Oct 2022, 12:54 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Our DNA confirms we had intermixed with Neanderthals and other archaic humans. Our prehistoric cousins live on in us.


To be precise, Neanderthal DNA is highest in east Asians followed by Europeans
Denisovan DNA is highest in Australian aborigines and melanesians and starts to drop as you go further north into south east Asia.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,294
Location: temperate zone

21 Oct 2022, 2:25 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The perceptions of neanderthals has changed over time. In the 20th century they were depicted as brutish and ape-like due to their prominent brow ridge (this coincided with the European science of phrenology (now debunked) which purported skull shape could prove certain people (insert PoC, criminals and the intellectually feeble) were inherently inferior.

Archaeological evidence carefully collected over time suggests Neanderthals were no different to modern humans in almost every facet of social life. Its becoming apparent that rather than any source of inferiority, the low populations of Neanderthals were simply absorbed by the incoming (and numerically superior) waves of modern humans


Youre doing "overzealous debunking" here.

Its true that Victorian science painted an absurd, and derogatory, picture of Neanderthals as being knuckle dragging "ape men". And its true that today anthropology is more impressed with the similarities between us and Neanderthals, than with the differences. They were smart, resourceful, and fully human, and managed to survive half of million years in Ice Age Europe (one of the harshest environments ever). But there were subtle differences between them and anatomical moderns in behavior, in their tool industry, etc. Its not exactly accurate to say "there was no difference" between them and "modern humans". Part of the evidence for that is ..what you posted...that the moderns swamped them with greater numbers. Those greater numbers must have been the result of the anatomical moderns being able to support more people per the same land area by exploiting resources differently.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,897

21 Oct 2022, 9:58 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
[But there were subtle differences between them and anatomical moderns in behavior, in their tool industry, etc. Its not exactly accurate to say "there was no difference" between them and "modern humans". Part of the evidence for that is ..what you posted...that the moderns swamped them with greater numbers. Those greater numbers must have been the result of the anatomical moderns being able to support more people per the same land area by exploiting resources differently.


I am not 100% certain of this. Stone tools etc..,as weapons for hunting and protecting against predators like sabre toothed tigers/mammoths and cave bears plus the hostile climate during the ice age might have been factors that kept the neanderthal population low. The ice sheaths might have been a natural barrier that kept these populations isolated so they were unable to sustain large populations.

The incoming humans came from much more plentiful warmer climes where larger populations were supported. As the ice receded the opportunity arose for the larger populations of southern humans to move north following game animals where they came into contact with the smaller populations of neanderthals for the first time. What remains an unknown is whether the incoming Homo Sapiens Sapiens were more capable of taking advantage of the environment or whether they were simply numerically superior and absorbed the neanderthals over several thousands of years. My understanding is the neanderthals were physically more robust, and their bodies were more climatically adapted to the colder climate. They also had larger brain cases.

The hybrid human/neanderthals were the ones who best adapted to the colder north of Europe which is borne from the high levels of neanderthal DNA. This is also observed among east asians, The further north you go in Asia the higher the neanderthal DNA count. It would not surprise me if the neanderthals has light hair/skin and epicanthal folds



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,342
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

21 Oct 2022, 10:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
[But there were subtle differences between them and anatomical moderns in behavior, in their tool industry, etc. Its not exactly accurate to say "there was no difference" between them and "modern humans". Part of the evidence for that is ..what you posted...that the moderns swamped them with greater numbers. Those greater numbers must have been the result of the anatomical moderns being able to support more people per the same land area by exploiting resources differently.


I am not 100% certain of this. Stone tools etc..,as weapons for hunting and protecting against predators like sabre toothed tigers/mammoths and cave bears plus the hostile climate during the ice age might have been factors that kept the neanderthal population low. The ice sheaths might have been a natural barrier that kept these populations isolated so they were unable to sustain large populations.

The incoming humans came from much more plentiful warmer climes where larger populations were supported. As the ice receded the opportunity arose for the larger populations of southern humans to move north following game animals where they came into contact with the smaller populations of neanderthals for the first time. What remains an unknown is whether the incoming Homo Sapiens Sapiens were more capable of taking advantage of the environment or whether they were simply numerically superior and absorbed the neanderthals over several thousands of years. My understanding is the neanderthals were physically more robust, and their bodies were more climatically adapted to the colder climate. They also had larger brain cases.

The hybrid human/neanderthals were the ones who best adapted to the colder north of Europe which is borne from the high levels of neanderthal DNA. This is also observed among east asians, The further north you go in Asia the higher the neanderthal DNA count. It would not surprise me if the neanderthals has light hair/skin and epicanthal folds


I prefer to say modern human/Neanderthal, as Neanderthals were human, though archaic.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,897

22 Oct 2022, 1:33 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I prefer to say modern human/Neanderthal, as Neanderthals were human, though archaic.


Correct, the ability to create fertile offspring means neanderthals are just a sub-species of Homo Sapiens

The current Linnaeus classification is this
Homo Sapiens Sapiens - all of us
Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis - caucasians, east Asians
Homo Sapiens Denisovans - Melanesians, aborigines, south east Asians

Sub Saharan Africans are the purest Homo Sapiens Sapiens on the planet



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,342
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

22 Oct 2022, 2:33 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I prefer to say modern human/Neanderthal, as Neanderthals were human, though archaic.


Correct, the ability to create fertile offspring means neanderthals are just a sub-species of Homo Sapiens

The current Linnaeus classification is this
Homo Sapiens Sapiens - all of us
Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis - caucasians, east Asians
Homo Sapiens Denisovans - Melanesians, aborigines, south east Asians

Sub Saharan Africans are the purest Homo Sapiens Sapiens on the planet


I'm sure that last gets white supremacists stroking out! :lol:


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,897

22 Oct 2022, 5:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm sure that last gets white supremacists stroking out! :lol:


It's a form of self-hatred. Dishonouring your distant ancestors