F.B.I. Raids Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

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ASPartOfMe
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13 Aug 2022, 11:23 am

goldfish21 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Any of the top 3 trump fans in this thread care to make a friendly wager on any of these statements? Matrix? Dox? Raptor? I'm not much of a gambling man, so not really interested in high stakes - more like bragging rights. But I'd wager a small sum of $ or a beer or whatever. We'd simply have to clearly define the terms.

It's not so much about being a fan as being entertained by how worked up wokes get over him.

I would think anyone would get worked up over him, regardless of whether or not you're a US citizen. The guy tried to overthrow the US gov't, and now it's revealed that he stole classified documents of the highest most sensitive type.. which certainly ought to make you wonder what he was planning on doing with them - as they could pretty much only be used for nefarious TRE45ONous purposes.

Anyone who doesn't get worked up over these things has some sort of disconnect from objective reality, IMO.

Reason for a search warrant is far from beyond a reasonable doubt needed to convict. But the stakes have been massively raised from him skating away from being imprisoned to him skating away from the electric chair because that is what should happen to a person who sells nuclear secrets to another country. But again seeing is believing we have been down the treason route before.

If he sold nuke secrets and gets away with it 250 years of toil and blood go out the window. I say that knowing Trump’s execution means civil war. With the stakes so high and expectations/fears so high the government has to get it 100 percent right. Say all the negative things you want about the MAGA’s and they are mostly true one of the important reasons we are where we are is so many of these allegations if not a nothing burger amounted to a lot less then expected. I said earlier the government erred in giving in to public pressure and releasing the warrant. I seriously underestimated how much of a mistake.


1. Your post is the first mention he sold nuclear secrets that I've seen. Evidence?

2. How do you figure it was an error releasing the warrant? :? To the contrary I think the transparency was very good - that republicans demanded it, and the DOJ complied.. showing their cards fully about what they were after and why. Should shut them up, really, as now they can't shout "WIIIIIITCH HUUUUNT!!" when they know damned well what they were after.


Selling nuclear secret's is not in the warrant it is the implied when it said “espionage”. Obviously at the time of the warrant they did not have evidence. And I said if he sold it.

You should know by now the Republicans are never going to shut up. What they did by releasing it was 1.Give in to bullies always a losing strategy. 2. As noted above, massively raised expectations. 3. If it is still possible made it even harder to find an impartial jury that is needed to convict him.


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goldfish21
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13 Aug 2022, 11:47 am

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goldfish21
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13 Aug 2022, 11:47 am

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No :heart: for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.


goldfish21
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13 Aug 2022, 12:16 pm

I'm literally LOLing out loud to myself at the few ppl's posts in this thread who seem to think trump hasn't done anything wrong enough to be held accountable for it or suffer any consequences & the even fewer who still think he ought to be potus again. Completely bizzaro world stuff. The guy has been criming his entire life.. but over the last few years, he's been criming against the US government - which isn't some building vendor he can just stiff and walk away from, or even a rape victim that's waited too long to press charges.. the US government is a juggernaut not to be fkd with & trumplestilskin fkd around and is about to find out. Bigly.

Anyways, I'm off to ride my motorcycle & paddleboard to the beach for a bbq and summer party. It's "Wreck Beach Day," today, so there will be food, drink, group photos, tug-o-war, and generally good times had by all. Skimboards, paddleboards, jetskis, boats, bbqs, drinks, smoke, music, sun, sand and so on. Hope to come back tonight or tmw morning to some hilarious responses and defences of orange leader bean for my entertainment later! 8)


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VegetableMan
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13 Aug 2022, 12:26 pm

What politician of, at least, of the post WW2 era HASN'T been crimping their entire life? Name one please.

I'm not excusing Trump's crimes, but you don't seem have the slightest conception, or concern, about the political system that led to Trump.

I know I'm beating my head against a wall. It's pointless.


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funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2022, 12:58 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
What politician of, at least, of the post WW2 era HASN'T been crimping their entire life? Name one please.

I'm not excusing Trump's crimes, but you don't seem have the slightest conception, or concern, about the political system that led to Trump.

I know I'm beating my head against a wall. It's pointless.


Abridged version: I'm not making excuses for Trump, but what about (anything but the current topic)?


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VegetableMan
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13 Aug 2022, 1:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
What politician of, at least, of the post WW2 era HASN'T been crimping their entire life? Name one please.

I'm not excusing Trump's crimes, but you don't seem have the slightest conception, or concern, about the political system that led to Trump.

I know I'm beating my head against a wall. It's pointless.






Abridged version: I'm not making excuses for Trump, but what about (anything but the current topic)?


Oh, I get it now. Like I said the other day, if I'm not part of the cult of thought that so many members of board adhere to, I'm derailing the thread.

You know all I'm trying to do is bringing
a ,broader perspective to the conversation. If you don't like my posts, than feel free to ignore them.


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funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2022, 1:36 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Oh, I get it now. Like I said the other day, if I'm not part of the cult of thought that so many members of board adhere to, I'm derailing the thread.

You know all I'm trying to do is bringing
a ,broader perspective to the conversation. If you don't like my posts, than feel free to ignore them.


I didn't say you're derailing the topic, I'm saying that nothing you've brought up negates the concerns about Trump and attempting to frame it as though they do amounts to deflection.

I've defended and supported your criticisms at times because I acknowledge they're valid and relevant, they just don't negate any and all criticisms of Trump and his seditious and criminal behaviours.

But please tell me more about how not falling for deflections makes one a cultist.


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VegetableMan
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13 Aug 2022, 1:50 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Oh, I get it now. Like I said the other day, if I'm not part of the cult of thought that so many members of board adhere to, I'm derailing the thread.

You know all I'm trying to do is bringing
a ,broader perspective to the conversation. If you don't like my posts, than feel free to ignore them.


I didn't say you're derailing the topic, I'm saying that nothing you've brought up negates the concerns about Trump and attempting to frame it as though they do amounts to deflection.

I've defended and supported your criticisms at times because I acknowledge they're valid and relevant, they just don't negate any and all criticisms of Trump and his seditious and criminal behaviours.

But please tell me more about how not falling for deflections makes one a cultist.


I'm not deflecting, I'm expressing an opinion I've made on this site for years. I've watched garbage get worse for years, and watched the partisan divide get continually worse which only will hasten the demise of this country.

We'll see what happens when the evidence against Trump is fully revealed by the F.B.I.


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Dox47
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13 Aug 2022, 3:01 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
I would think anyone would get worked up over him, regardless of whether or not you're a US citizen. The guy tried to overthrow the US gov't, and now it's revealed that he stole classified documents of the highest most sensitive type.. which certainly ought to make you wonder what he was planning on doing with them - as they could pretty much only be used for nefarious TRE45ONous purposes.

Anyone who doesn't get worked up over these things has some sort of disconnect from objective reality, IMO.


Man, you really don't know the first things about US politics, do you? You keep bleating about trying to overthrow the government, when half the country sees that as threatening them with a good time. I'll even stipulate that Trump is an incompetent con man and not even a conservative, but he got me what I wanted, which is an orginalist Supreme Court and the most irritating half of the country having 6+ years of brain worms and stomach ulcers, so I'll accept a little light treason as part of that deal. DeSantis would be even better, +10 to competence, -5 to drama, -2 in lib triggering, and he could boost his triggering stats by appointing Trump to some symbolic role where he didn't have to do anything but give speeches and hold rallies, what he's best at.


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13 Aug 2022, 4:02 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
If you don't like my posts, than feel free to ignore them.


If you don't like people's responses, feel free to ignore them :wink:



goldfish21
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13 Aug 2022, 4:14 pm

Dox47 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I would think anyone would get worked up over him, regardless of whether or not you're a US citizen. The guy tried to overthrow the US gov't, and now it's revealed that he stole classified documents of the highest most sensitive type.. which certainly ought to make you wonder what he was planning on doing with them - as they could pretty much only be used for nefarious TRE45ONous purposes.

Anyone who doesn't get worked up over these things has some sort of disconnect from objective reality, IMO.


Man, you really don't know the first things about US politics, do you? You keep bleating about trying to overthrow the government, when half the country sees that as threatening them with a good time. I'll even stipulate that Trump is an incompetent con man and not even a conservative, but he got me what I wanted, which is an orginalist Supreme Court and the most irritating half of the country having 6+ years of brain worms and stomach ulcers, so I'll accept a little light treason as part of that deal. DeSantis would be even better, +10 to competence, -5 to drama, -2 in lib triggering, and he could boost his triggering stats by appointing Trump to some symbolic role where he didn't have to do anything but give speeches and hold rallies, what he's best at.

Did you watch the J6 Hearings? That’s what he tried to do.


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Last edited by goldfish21 on 13 Aug 2022, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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13 Aug 2022, 4:14 pm

Taibbi on the Espionage Act angle:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-espio ... an-instant

Matt Taibbi wrote:
If I were Trump, I absolutely would fundraise off being investigated under the Espionage Act. By pursuing him under this provision, the Justice Department just did Trump the mother of all favors, adding his name to a list of some of the most famous political martyrs in our history.

“Ellsberg, Hale, Winner, Snowden, Assange, and now Trump,” a source close to Julian Assange said this morning. “Incredible.”

Maybe Reich can’t see how this will play politically, or doesn’t care, but anyone thrilled at the prospect of trying to prosecute a former president under the Espionage Act has blacked out the recent history of this law. How much does this Act suck, and shame us all? Let’s count the ways.

The Espionage Act represents the evolution of a series of laws whose purpose is/was to criminalize unauthorized use of sensitive information. I wrote this after the indictment of Assange:

The indictment stressed Assange/Manning were seeking “national defense information” that could be “used to the injury of the United States…” [This] gave off a whiff of Britain’s Official Secrets Acts and America’s Defense Secrets Act of 1911, prohibiting “national defense” information going to “those not entitled to receive it…”

These laws were written in a way that contradicted basic speech protections… There was a way to read the Espionage Act that criminalized what the Columbia Law Review back in 1973 (during the Pentagon Papers controversy) called the “mere retention” of classified material.


If you want a clear portrait of the shift in establishment thinking about this, look at the attitude of the New York Times toward its own role in the history of the Act. In 1981, on the ten year anniversary of the government charging former Daniel Ellsberg with violation of the Espionage Act for taking the “Pentagon Papers” to the Times for publication, the paper’s former attorney in that case, Floyd Abrams, wrote an editorial celebrating the episode. He said it “stiffened the spines of all journalists.”

Thirty years later, the Times ran a very different essay. Written by attorney Gabriel Schoenfeld and entitled “Leaking the Pentagon Papers was an Assault on Democracy,” Schoenfeld argued “Mr. Ellsberg’s legacy is at best mixed,” as he was “still a rogue actor,” who “if the fundamental ground rules of our constitutional democracy are to be respected, deserves a measure of condemnation.”
Image

Katie Halper and I asked Ellsberg about the Act around then:

They’ve learned to wield the Espionage Act, to criminalize whistleblowing… 9/11 comes along, and it’s ‘Constitution be damned.’ Since then we've had total surveillance of everybody, totally unconstitutionally… We’re not a police state, but we could be a police state almost from one day to the next… They know where we are, they know our names, they know from our iPhones if we’re on our way to the grocery store or not… We could be East Germany in weeks, in a month.

The general public not long ago had sympathy for revealers of secrets like Edward Snowden, who disclosed the county had been the subject of an illegal mass surveillance program. They also had growing contempt for a security apparatus that awarded itself virtually unlimited power via pseudo-laws like the PATRIOT Act, the Office of Legal Counsel secret memo supposedly legalizing drone assassination even of Americans, and the Bush-era memo with the amazing Orwellian name, “Humane Treatment of Taliban and al Qaeda Detainees,” that unilaterally exempted the U.S. from Geneva convention prohibitions against torture.

When CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou revealed details about the program, what law was used to charge him? The Espionage Act. What “espionage” did he commit? Did he sell secrets to Russia, China, al-Qaeda? No. He talked to American journalists, including a network TV pair named Matthew Cole and Richard Esposito (remember those names).

Even as the government defined talking to American reporters as espionage, and even as Kiriakou went to jail for two years (the only CIA person ever to be jailed in connection with the torture program), the press backed the concept. “It took my lawyers a year to get CNN and MSNBC to stop calling me CIA-leaker John Kiriakou and to start calling me CIA-whistleblower,” he said.

Barack Obama was one of the most enthusiastic deployers of the Espionage Act, using it at least eight times to bring charges against people not for “espionage,” but for talking to the press. The list included Thomas Drake, Shamai Leibowitz, Stephen Kim, Chelsea Manning, Donald Sachtleben, and Jeffrey Sterling, plus Kiriakou and Snowden. The AP wrote how the Obama administration “obtained the records of 20 Associated Press office phone lines and reporters’ home and cell phones,” while they also:

Secretly dogged Fox News journalist James Rosen, getting his phone records, tracking his arrivals and departures at the State Department through his security-badge use, obtaining a search warrant to see his personal emails…

Establishment attitudes toward “whistleblowing” shifted with Trump’s election. Director Laura Poitras, won an Oscar in 2015 for her documentary about Snowden, CitizenFour. Glenn Greenwald, the reporter with whom Snowden collaborated, won the Pulitzer Prize. Yet when Trump got elected, a new type of “whistleblowing” became common. High-level leaks about issues like the Trump-Russia investigation, seemingly all coming from senior intelligence officials or congressional sources, were an almost weekly occurrence, and none were prosecuted.

One that didn’t go unpunished involved NSA contractor Reality Winner, sentenced to five years under, you guessed it, the Espionage Act. What was different about her case? She wasn’t a former CIA director or a DNI, just an ordinary person. “It’s about low-hanging fruit,” Titus Nichols, Winner’s attorney, told me at the time.

Winner’s case came after a 2017 story in the Intercept entitled, “Top Secret NSA report details Russian hacking effort days before election.” They called it the “most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light.”

The affidavit attached to Winner’s indictment charges her with having first “improperly” removed “national defense information,” then having “unlawfully” transmitted it “to an online news outlet.” The lead reporters on the Intercept story, by a remarkable coincidence — like a remarkably remarkable coincidence — were Matthew Cole and Richard Esposito.

A military analyst named Daniel Hale couldn’t take being a drone assassin, disclosed details about his work, and got 45 months under the Espionage Act for his trouble. At sentencing he insisted his real crime was his work for the Air Force. “I am here because I stole something that was never mine to take — precious human life,” he said.

The case against the onetime liberal hero Julian Assange boils down to one half-assed charge of allegedly agreeing to help (but never following through) source Chelsea Manning crack a hash to protect her identity, wrapped around 17 insane charges under the Espionage Act. I wrote at the time his indictment was “the work of attorneys who probably thought the Sedition Act was good law.” A list of the charges:

Count 1: Conspiracy to Receive National Defense Information. Counts 2-4: Obtaining National Defense Information. Counts 5-8: Obtaining National Defense Information. And so on. The indictment is an insane tautology. It charges Assange with conspiracy to obtain secrets for the purpose of obtaining them. It lists the following “offense”:

“To obtain documents, writings, and notes connected with the national defense, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense…”


The Espionage Act is an embarrassment that would make Marcos or Suharto squeamish, but it’s of course not completely impossible there’s an actual espionage offense in Trump’s case somewhere (just as obviously, no evidence of this has been produced). Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were tried under the Act for giving bomb secrets to the Soviets, as Michael Beschloss and Michael Hayden just helpfully reminded us. However, in modern times, the Espionage Act is more associated with talking to the Times, ABC, The Guardian and The Intercept than with actual spying. The defendants are more often conscience-stricken heroes like Hale than villains.

That’s the problem with this law. “Information relating to the national defense” can essentially be anything the government decides, and they can put you in jail a long time for “mishandling” it, which in Assange’s case included merely having it. Trump or no Trump, if you think that’s okay, you’re an as*hole. It’s totally un-American, which is why Robert Reich shouldn’t be surprised if Donald Trump acts proud of being investigated for it. This law is more infamous than he is, and everyone but a handful of blue checks can see it.


Long excerpt due to paywall, lots of good supporting links in the original.


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Dox47
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13 Aug 2022, 4:16 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Did you watch the J6 Heatings? That’s what he tried to do.


Good for him? Maybe work on the reading comprehension a bit?


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13 Aug 2022, 4:19 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
If you don't like my posts, than feel free to ignore them.


If you don't like people's responses, feel free to ignore them :wink:


Well, I do sometimes. But I do get frustrated by those who are unable to interact with me on an intellectual level that I've come to expect from those who have done their research on the topics I'm discussing.


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13 Aug 2022, 6:40 pm

Raptor wrote:
Hey, if conservatives are to be labeled as Nazis I'm gonna play it up for all its worth.


I give you credit, I was entertained.


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