F.B.I. Raids Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

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kraftiekortie
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14 Aug 2022, 5:10 pm

It’s true that many encounters between “minorities” and the police are positive encounters.

I am not anti-cop. I work with cops. Many are cool; but some are as*holes.

There are cops out there who perform racial profiling, and over-react when it is thought that a person is carrying a weapon.

I’ve seen shootings where people have “weapons” like pens and other notorious “shiny objects,” rather than actual weapons.



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14 Aug 2022, 5:21 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Statistics on police shootings.Black men are at a higher risk of getting shot by a cop.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/


Now go look at the FBI data on who commits violent crimes sorted by race. I'm not going to hold your hand through the whole process here, as there's a lot of data and I don't find you receptive to changing your mind in the face of facts, but what you'll find if you're honest is that most of the mistreatment of blacks by the police is closer to being more likely to be handcuffed or detained or otherwise treated poorly than being shot. Don't get me wrong, it's still very bad that the police are treating anyone poorly, let alone in a racially discriminatory manner, but the idea that black people are in mortal peril every time they interact with a cop is false, and harmful as well.

I take it you’re not black and have never had a conversation with a black person about this.

Even here in relatively diverse and safe metro Vancouver, BC, Canada, my Jamaican next door neighbour has had conversations with his kids about being extra cautious, respectful and so forth with police because you just never know when the colour of your skin is going to trigger someone into overreacting unnecessarily. And he’s not wrong. And his kids are Good people - Nurse, football scholarship with med school dreams etc - yet even here, they all just Know that racism runs rampant in law enforcement and they have to have “the talk,” with their kids about not making any sudden movements, being ultra polite and obeying orders by officers etc.

It’s magnitudes worse South of the border.


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14 Aug 2022, 5:23 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I guess every "side" has its emotional trigger issues. My mind wasn't on the issues you listed, but on some very Trump related issues when I wrote my statement. There are also multiple areas where the data favors active government as being better for the economy and most citizens.


Heh, I feel like the liberal mind has some sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Trump, none of you seem able to accept that many if not most of his voters are not ignorant of his personal failings, that they're in fact a plus because they drive the liberals even crazier, and that the more you hyperventilate about them the more attractive to his base he becomes. If you think you can persuade anyone with facts regarding that man, yeah, you're going to have a bad time, but you're not capable of making a persuasive case against Trump to a Trump voter because you're a liberal, the more bad things you say about him the more more attractive you're going to make him. Do you see who is losing their minds in this thread and others like it? Have you seen how many of the same posters have treated me over the years? That's the whole ballgame in a microcosm.

DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't think realize exactly how much you've written that I HAVE taken to heart. I accept that a lot of popular proposals won't actually work. But I also know we can't keep things going the way they are, so I think we need to be willing to experiment. What I'd like is for those well versed in weaponry to come up with viable alternatives instead of just shouting no to everything.


Slight clarification; we object to any more gun control, not any and all potential solutions to violence. In fact, many of us have been quite clear about proposing solutions, such as media blackouts on mass shooters, broad anti poverty measures, ending the drug war that creates the financial incentive for violent conflict in the cities, etc, but liberals don't actually want to stop the violence, they want gun control. I used to give the benefit of the doubt, that it really was about saving lives and you people just didn't know any better, but that's long past, it's another culture war issue at this point, a way to hurt people who don't vote the way you'd like coupled to a personal revulsion. The Bruen decision should be the beginning of the end for most gun control in this country, as virtually none of it can stand up to a text history and tradition test, but it's going to be a long fight with blue states kicking and screaming all the way, including my own.

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm sorry you've had those experiences.

Life sucks for a lot of people right now, and it certainly hasn't lived up to what I was promised as I grew up. I place the blame differently than you do, because of what I see in data.


Data doesn't tell the whole story, plus it's only as honest as the people who gathered it. I regularly have this argument with a friend of mine who became a data scientist, he won't believe anything he can't see the numbers on, and it leads to this really obnoxious "don't believe your lying eyes, believe my charts and graphs" tone that is both off-putting and wrong, as if no one ever lied with statistics.


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Dox47
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14 Aug 2022, 5:28 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
I take it you’re not black and have never had a conversation with a black person about this.


LOL, I was literally married to a black woman, get out of here with that insinuation garbage, you're embarrassing yourself.


goldfish21 wrote:
It’s magnitudes worse South of the border.


No, it isn't, and to follow up, how would you know if it was?


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14 Aug 2022, 5:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Statistics on police shootings.Black men are at a higher risk of getting shot by a cop.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/


Now go look at the FBI data on who commits violent crimes sorted by race. I'm not going to hold your hand through the whole process here, as there's a lot of data and I don't find you receptive to changing your mind in the face of facts, but what you'll find if you're honest is that most of the mistreatment of blacks by the police is closer to being more likely to be handcuffed or detained or otherwise treated poorly than being shot. Don't get me wrong, it's still very bad that the police are treating anyone poorly, let alone in a racially discriminatory manner, but the idea that black people are in mortal peril every time they interact with a cop is false, and harmful as well.

We won’t know how Black people feel when they see a cop because we are not black.We only imagine.Cops do shoot unarmed white people. Happened here in Arkansas and Reverend Sharpton showed up to support the family.
Poverty is the main reason for violent crime, more people of color are poor and likely to engage in behavior that brings them in contact with law enforcement.
Maybe just selling weed on the corner to make ends meet.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny- ... its-crime/
I’ve lived in areas with a large Black population and areas that are mostly White.Crime is worse in poor neighborhoods.


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kraftiekortie
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14 Aug 2022, 5:57 pm

I’m literally married to a black person right now.

I’ve had more negative police encounters than she’s had.

Alas, though, police, in general, treat people worse in “minority” neighborhoods…..even if they’re white.

The police/minority thing is very complicated—unless you happen to be the victim of police brutality when you haven’t done a crime. When you “look like” a suspect.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 14 Aug 2022, 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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14 Aug 2022, 6:03 pm

@Dox47, points taken. All these issues have quite a few facets to them.

FYI I saw a lot of parallels in your discussion of gun violence proposals to the abortion reduction proposals from my segment of the politically pro-choice. So the ideas are out there, but drowned out by the more extreme voices that make more convenient foils for the more dishonest political agenda segment of the other side? I buy that. It really is frustrating that the “find solutions” segments aren’t getting enough traction in the public debate to move the needles.

On the race discussion, I think history plays into it a lot, and that isn’t unreasonable. But solutions do require refocusing to the areas injustice is the most prevalent. The problem is those areas aren’t emotional enough to gain traction and allies.

We’re so dam trapped by sound bite culture and the short attention span of the news cycle.


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kraftiekortie
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14 Aug 2022, 6:05 pm

“Short attention span” is a primary reason for the rise of Trump.



DW_a_mom
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14 Aug 2022, 6:08 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Crime is worse in poor neighborhoods.


Yes. Makes one think that the right answer to crime would be to reduce poverty. But concern about crime has never been the driver behind taking an anti-crime political stance, has it?

Man do we all get played.


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Misslizard
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14 Aug 2022, 6:25 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Statistics on police shootings.Black men are at a higher risk of getting shot by a cop.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/


Now go look at the FBI data on who commits violent crimes sorted by race. I'm not going to hold your hand through the whole process here, as there's a lot of data and I don't find you receptive to changing your mind in the face of facts, but what you'll find if you're honest is that most of the mistreatment of blacks by the police is closer to being more likely to be handcuffed or detained or otherwise treated poorly than being shot. Don't get me wrong, it's still very bad that the police are treating anyone poorly, let alone in a racially discriminatory manner, but the idea that black people are in mortal peril every time they interact with a cop is false, and harmful as well.

I take it you’re not black and have never had a conversation with a black person about this.

Even here in relatively diverse and safe metro Vancouver, BC, Canada, my Jamaican next door neighbour has had conversations with his kids about being extra cautious, respectful and so forth with police because you just never know when the colour of your skin is going to trigger someone into overreacting unnecessarily. And he’s not wrong. And his kids are Good people - Nurse, football scholarship with med school dreams etc - yet even here, they all just Know that racism runs rampant in law enforcement and they have to have “the talk,” with their kids about not making any sudden movements, being ultra polite and obeying orders by officers etc.

It’s magnitudes worse South of the border.

A former counselor told me about having “ the talk” with her mixed race son.Keeping both hands visible at all times, no reaching for glove box or rummaging in the seat.


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goldfish21
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14 Aug 2022, 6:46 pm

Image


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14 Aug 2022, 7:39 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Anyways, I'm off to ride my motorcycle & paddleboard to the beach for a bbq and summer party.

What kind of motorcycle?

This one:

Image

1993 BMW K75 w/ collector plates, rebuilt transmission last Spring, paddleboard strapped to the passenger seat - snapped this pic a day or two ago when I parked at the beach. Might take my car tdy so I can take a cooler full of burgers tho hmm. Or maybe the bike and I’ll pack light.

What a coincidence!!
I have a BMW, too. :D

Image

No, actually I have an '08 Yamaha V-Star 1100 Custom.


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Raptor
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14 Aug 2022, 7:42 pm

Misslizard wrote:
A former counselor told me about having “ the talk” with her mixed race son.Keeping both hands visible at all times, no reaching for glove box or rummaging in the seat.

You should do those things regardless of race.


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14 Aug 2022, 7:45 pm

Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
A former counselor told me about having “ the talk” with her mixed race son.Keeping both hands visible at all times, no reaching for glove box or rummaging in the seat.

You should do those things regardless of race.

Chris Rock has a good video about that.
https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8


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goldfish21
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14 Aug 2022, 8:09 pm

I think some here dramatically under estimate just how serious an offence it is to take the most top secret classified documents out of the special purpose built spy proof rooms they’re meant to be read in.. and then to continue to hold onto them after being subpoenaed for their return.. and also what the penalties for doing something like that can be. (Jail time.) Not unlike J6, but in a bit different way, this is Serious and trump’s in Serious trouble for it.

If it was any other US citizen they’d already be half way to gitmo by now.

Raptor wrote:
No, actually I have an '08 Yamaha V-Star 1100 Custom.

Nice. 8)

If I end up moving this winter/spring And I have a garage I might buy another old bike or two since it’s super cheap insurance with collector plates And bikes with collector plates don’t lose much, if any, resale value.

Might consider some sort of Big highway cruiser. Maybe something more sporty. Dunno for sure.


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14 Aug 2022, 9:43 pm

If it had been someone other than the president who had the power to declassify them, taking his work home with him, then it would be more surprising. As a former president he probably has bigger secrets stored in his head.

They were just on a fishing expedition for something to help with the failing Jan 6 committee investigations. A last desperate attempt.