F.B.I. Raids Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

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DW_a_mom
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23 Aug 2022, 4:05 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Feds Recovered 300 Classified Docs in 3 Batches From Mar-a-Lago: NYT
Quote:
Federal agents recovered more than 300 individual documents containing sensitive material from Mar-a-Lago in three bursts over the last eight months, according to a Monday report from The New York Times. Multiple sources familiar with the previously unreported number told the newspaper that the FBI raid on Donald Trump’s Florida estate this month was prompted, at least in part, by an initial flood of 150 classified documents given to the National Archives in January. This prompted fears at the Justice Department that the former president might have more material squirreled away, according to the Times.

Multiple sources also said that Trump had rifled through the boxes of documents in late 2021, while archives officials were actively attempting to recover the material.


The part about Trump might have more material squirreled away is what bothers me. Don't they keep track of top secret documents well enough to know what is missing?

Some articles have said some documents are so top secret they can’t even put a description of what they are on an inventory list of seized documents just in case the list is ever leaked or read by anyone without clearance to know about the existence of those documents.

So it seems that one of their security measures may be granting access to an extremely limited number of people and Not inventorying the documents At All.

I find it really hard to believe such important files and documents would not be kept track of via a code system of numbers and letters. For instance "MF 97773277 F" is what? The Bureau of Engraving and Printing knows it's a $100 Federal Reserve Note printed in 2013. The National Archives should have a similar system, but perhaps not, and the White House janitor also has a bunch of top secret documents no one knows exist, much less knows they're missing.


I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.


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Matrix Glitch
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23 Aug 2022, 6:32 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.

These are papers that are kept in an archive. The very definition of archiving something is to catalog it.



DW_a_mom
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23 Aug 2022, 7:18 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.

These are papers that are kept in an archive. The very definition of archiving something is to catalog it.


Papers MEANT to be archived. Trump had them, not the archivists.


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Matrix Glitch
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23 Aug 2022, 9:42 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.

These are papers that are kept in an archive. The very definition of archiving something is to catalog it.


Papers MEANT to be archived. Trump had them, not the archivists.

Why would they want to archive them if they're too secret to be cataloged? I'm sure there are documents that are as ultra top secret as you say, but it seems to me they'd be kept under military control, rather than in museum in the middle of town.



goldfish21
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23 Aug 2022, 11:10 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.

These are papers that are kept in an archive. The very definition of archiving something is to catalog it.


Papers MEANT to be archived. Trump had them, not the archivists.

Why would they want to archive them if they're too secret to be cataloged? I'm sure there are documents that are as ultra top secret as you say, but it seems to me they'd be kept under military control, rather than in museum in the middle of town.


If you’d watch/listen to even a 30 second news clip or two, then you’d know that some of the documents the fat old orange guy stole were meant to be viewed in SCIF’s only. Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility - buildings/rooms designed to be basically spy proof.

Here’s the specs for the buildings and security standards if you really want to know:

https://www.dni.gov/files/NCSC/document ... -705-1.pdf

The former guy stole documents classified at this ultra high level and had them damned near available to anyone that wandered around mar-a-lago. That’s why there’s a damage assessment being conducted to see just how bad all of this could be for national security. Also why he might face consequences for it.


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collectoritis
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24 Aug 2022, 12:13 am

"fat old orange guy"

there are 2 orange guys , Trump and Hulk Hogan :lol: :mrgreen:



goldfish21
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24 Aug 2022, 12:29 am

“Lawyers are giggling”: Legal experts scratch their heads at Trump’s “very strange” new DOJ lawsuit

"He's sort of asking Merrick Garland to prosecute him," says Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe

https://www.salon.com/2022/08/23/lawyer ... e-new-doj/


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goldfish21
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24 Aug 2022, 12:48 am

Image


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Matrix Glitch
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24 Aug 2022, 2:04 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm speculating here, since I've never worked with classified information, but any tracking system, it would seem to me, creates an additional layer of records that can be breached and an additional trail of clues that need to be secured. So while logic would suggest there ought to be one, I'm thinking there probably isn't one, and that its intentional there isn't one.

When I have conversations that we want off the record, or create papers that we want off the record, I leave NOTHING behind. It's kind of the whole point.

These are papers that are kept in an archive. The very definition of archiving something is to catalog it.


Papers MEANT to be archived. Trump had them, not the archivists.

Why would they want to archive them if they're too secret to be cataloged? I'm sure there are documents that are as ultra top secret as you say, but it seems to me they'd be kept under military control, rather than in museum in the middle of town.


If you’d watch/listen to even a 30 second news clip or two, then you’d know that some of the documents the fat old orange guy stole were meant to be viewed in SCIF’s only. Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility - buildings/rooms designed to be basically spy proof.

Here’s the specs for the buildings and security standards if you really want to know:

https://www.dni.gov/files/NCSC/document ... -705-1.pdf

The former guy stole documents classified at this ultra high level and had them damned near available to anyone that wandered around mar-a-lago. That’s why there’s a damage assessment being conducted to see just how bad all of this could be for national security. Also why he might face consequences for it.


What DW_a_mom and I were discussing is whether or not the documents were being kept track of. I think they should have been fully aware of every missing document. DW_a_mom thinks maybe they were so secret there was no record of them to be accounted for.



DW_a_mom
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24 Aug 2022, 4:32 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

What DW_a_mom and I were discussing is whether or not the documents were being kept track of. I think they should have been fully aware of every missing document. DW_a_mom thinks maybe they were so secret there was no record of them to be accounted for.


I confess to going in a few circles there. I speculated that at the time Trump took the documents, they had not been catalogued for any of a variety reasons, most likely security or timing or ?. I also speculate that there is intent to catalogue the retrieved documents now as part of creating the historical record of the executive branch. But it’s just speculation since we don’t have actual facts. I realize I’m still being about as clear as mud, but different concerns and procedures at different points on the timeline would make sense.


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24 Aug 2022, 5:46 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:

What DW_a_mom and I were discussing is whether or not the documents were being kept track of. I think they should have been fully aware of every missing document. DW_a_mom thinks maybe they were so secret there was no record of them to be accounted for.


I confess to going in a few circles there. I speculated that at the time Trump took the documents, they had not been catalogued for any of a variety reasons, most likely security or timing or ?. I also speculate that there is intent to catalogue the retrieved documents now as part of creating the historical record of the executive branch. But it’s just speculation since we don’t have actual facts. I realize I’m still being about as clear as mud, but different concerns and procedures at different points on the timeline would make sense.

All we can do is make guesses about unanswered questions. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



goldfish21
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24 Aug 2022, 10:55 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
What DW_a_mom and I were discussing is whether or not the documents were being kept track of. I think they should have been fully aware of every missing document. DW_a_mom thinks maybe they were so secret there was no record of them to be accounted for.


I had already said the ~same as DW:

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Feds Recovered 300 Classified Docs in 3 Batches From Mar-a-Lago: NYT
Quote:
Federal agents recovered more than 300 individual documents containing sensitive material from Mar-a-Lago in three bursts over the last eight months, according to a Monday report from The New York Times. Multiple sources familiar with the previously unreported number told the newspaper that the FBI raid on Donald Trump’s Florida estate this month was prompted, at least in part, by an initial flood of 150 classified documents given to the National Archives in January. This prompted fears at the Justice Department that the former president might have more material squirreled away, according to the Times.

Multiple sources also said that Trump had rifled through the boxes of documents in late 2021, while archives officials were actively attempting to recover the material.


The part about Trump might have more material squirreled away is what bothers me. Don't they keep track of top secret documents well enough to know what is missing?

Some articles have said some documents are so top secret they can’t even put a description of what they are on an inventory list of seized documents just in case the list is ever leaked or read by anyone without clearance to know about the existence of those documents.

So it seems that one of their security measures may be granting access to an extremely limited number of people and Not inventorying the documents At All.


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Matrix Glitch
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24 Aug 2022, 11:00 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
What DW_a_mom and I were discussing is whether or not the documents were being kept track of. I think they should have been fully aware of every missing document. DW_a_mom thinks maybe they were so secret there was no record of them to be accounted for.


I had already said the ~same as DW:


I must have gotten mixed up over who said what.



goldfish21
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24 Aug 2022, 11:41 am

Icic

I Also said there’s no way they let the orange former guy skate on all this stuff from J6 to stolen classified docs that put national security at risk. Zero percent chance he walks - it would set the worst precedent.. that the rule of law doesn’t apply to presidents committing seditious or treasonous acts. The federal gov’t/court system isn’t going to let that happen. He F’d around and is about to find out.


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ASPartOfMe
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24 Aug 2022, 12:04 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Icic

it would set the worst precedent.. that the rule of law doesn’t apply to presidents committing seditious or treasonous acts.

One problem is some of this precedent has been set when the special prosecutors decided not to prosecute Nixon while he was president and President Ford pardoned him. The Nixon campaign did do “dirty tricks” that helped the Republicans get the Democrat Nominee they prefferred.


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24 Aug 2022, 12:06 pm

True....but Trump and gang went further with his "dirty tricks."