Why don't more women fight back (TRIGGER WARNING)

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salad
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25 Jun 2021, 10:32 pm

This has been really bothering me as someone whose a proud fighter who would travel to the other ends of the earth to fight those who have hurt me, it pisses me off when I see all these videos and incidents of women getting groped, molested and even raped yet they never fight back, even a mild resistance they dont do. Even saying a simple "please stop" many women dont do. Now before I go any further cracking really sensitive eggs with this post let me clarify something:

In no way am I even insinuating that if a woman doesnt resist that it's ok to violate her consent. Absolutely not. Never! I'm a firm firm firm believer that if a women went into a bar naked, acted in a sexual manner, was groped nonconsensually but without resistance or even a no, that would still count as sexual assault regardless.

So before the pitchforks come out know that I'm not reviving the archaic and sexist tropes of lack of resistance implying consent.

I'm only asking because last week on vacation in Chicago a guy tried to grope my fiancee in front of me yet my badass fiance kicked the guy hard and dropped him. The moment she did that I fell in love with her more, but it also earned my respect for her even more.
But I also felt saddened by how many women in similar situations who dont fight back and who end up suffering regret for years that they didnt fight back. I get personally bothered when this happens to women and they dont resist, because growing up as a kid and watching my mom get battered helplessly by my dad without any resistance made me feel confused as to why my mom would let her husband terrorize her without any resistance

I'm not here to shame women who dont fight back, I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity: why do women become placid and servile when men overstep their boundaries. Why dont women fight back? Even if actual fighting cant be done, at least resist, at least say no, at least do something other than doing nothing. I really want to know because as a guy who throws fists when someone touches me the wrong way, it bothers me when I see women violated and they dont fight back

Sorry if I offended anyone. Watching my mom get abused growing up by my dad always made me wish she fought back, and I've felt stuck on the fact that she never resisted any of the beatings she took


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26 Jun 2021, 4:44 am

There are plenty of reasons, and it can be a different one based on the situation.

For one, there's the primitive feeling of fear. Are you familiar with the saying "frozen like a deer in headlights?" It's the same logic. People have a fight or flight instinct, which most people know about, but then there's also a third option, which is completely freezing up in a terrifying situation. Apparently, it's not all that rare for rapists to defend themselves by saying "she (or he) didn't even say no!" But the thing is, when you're "frozen" in fear, you're unable to do even that. And when someone is that terrified, one will notice. Saying "she/he didn't say no" is not something a rapist can use as a defense. The saying "anything but a yes is a no" should always be applied when it comes to anything sexual.

Then, when one is less afraid but afraid anyway, they think "what's the way to act that will cause me the least damage in this situation?" For majority of women, fighting back is not it because on average, men are stronger than women. Add the fact that predators are likely to look for victims that'll definitely be weaker than them, like small sized or much younger people, and the odds of winning a fight become even slimmer. If they tried to fight back physically, it's likely that the assaulter would hurt them more.

If the harassment is only verbal, like someone calls after you when you're walking in the street, just keeping walking without acknowledging the harassment is often told to be the best option. This is because that way you can keep getting away from such people and will keep from giving them any attention. Sometimes telling these people off will just encourage the harassers because it's a form of giving them attention. Same with if it's physical, but very brief and the option of walking away is there.

Then, there are the situations like the one with your fiancee. Hats off and respect for the lady, but two things: one, you have mentioned that your girlfriend is even stronger than you, who I recall to be a body builder of some sort. Good for her, but like I've said, an average woman is, unlike your fiancee, likely to be a lot weaker than their attacker. They're unlikely to be able to do anything like that even if they tried. Another thing is that if a woman (or a man) beat up someone who harassed her, she could end up in trouble with the law, even more so than the assaulter. I'm sure that had your fiancee done what she did where I'm from, she would've gotten in lot more trouble with the police than the assaulter, especially if neither of you could prove that the assault happened. So, a lot of women might be afraid to defend themselves cause they fear it'd be overreacting in the eyes of the law and they'd get in trouble. Of course, this depends a lot on the country one's in, and is probably a lot likelier here than in the USA, where way more things are allowed in the name of self defense.

As for your mom, while it's probably hard, have you ever asked her why she didn't defend herself? I'm guessing not since it's bugging you, but if you don't mind, I could throw a few guesses:
Perhaps she didn't fight back because she knew she was too weak for it to do any real good. Perhaps she let your father beat her in order to make sure he didn't beat someone even weaker than her, like you kids.
Then there's also culture things: in many cultures, kids are raised to believe from young age that women are worth less than men and if a man beats up a woman, especially their own wife or daughter, it's because the woman has done something so wrong that she deserves it. The women who believe they deserve the beatings are simply so brainwashed that they do nothing about it because of that, because they think it's the right thing to do. And staying on the matter of culture, even if the woman does know she's being wronged, if the laws and rules of whatever community she lives in mark women as men's property or at least as a lower being than a man, still a thing in many countries and some religious groups, they don't have anywhere to run, anyone to ask help from.
It's probably too personal to answer, but ask yourself, could these one of these things be a reason why your mom didn't right back?



ArtsyFarsty
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26 Jun 2021, 6:13 pm

You may not realize it, Salad, but what you are doing is diluting blame. It is not a crime to freeze, panic, or not have the physical ability to fend off an attack. It IS a crime to attack someone, and that is 100% on the perpetrator.

The average woman is vigilant about avoiding potentially dangerous situations, knows which precautions to take in a given situation, and probably even has a an overestimated mental image of what she would do in the face of danger. However, no one is ever truly sure of how they will react when it actually does happen.



salad
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26 Jun 2021, 10:11 pm

ArtsyFarsty wrote:
You may not realize it, Salad, but what you are doing is diluting blame. It is not a crime to freeze, panic, or not have the physical ability to fend off an attack. It IS a crime to attack someone, and that is 100% on the perpetrator.

The average woman is vigilant about avoiding potentially dangerous situations, knows which precautions to take in a given situation, and probably even has a an overestimated mental image of what she would do in the face of danger. However, no one is ever truly sure of how they will react when it actually does happen.


Im sorry for diluting blame. I was only curious, however if my wording of my question was hurtful in any way I can edit it in a way to make it less reproachable


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26 Jun 2021, 10:39 pm

It's a natural preservation technique the body uses:
Fight, flight or freeze.

You don't want to trigger more aggression, so you do what you can to get through it alive.

This is a good video by Rape Crisis Scotland.



Thankfully I haven't been in this situation, but I was in a road accident once and to my surprise I went floppy. I honestly thought I was going to die and I just accepted it in that moment. It may have helped me sustain less injury because I wasn't bracing myself for impact.



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26 Jun 2021, 10:57 pm

Well I had a situation, one time...and just seemed the better option to not fight back. Idk I was legit worried that if I did they would like really force things on me...so I let them mess around with my boobs a little and then just kinda played it off as having to go study and even kinda said maybe I'd come back later idk(in my head I was kind of in a panic just trying to think of whatever I could say to get them to leave me alone long enough so I could get away.) For me in that situation like they were a lot bigger and I was like 19 and they were in their 30's so i guess I really just didnt know what to do aside from do whatever I could to get out of that situation as quick as possible. Because Idk I felt if I like actually like fought it, like they were bigger and like a decade older than me so could have easily like overpowered me and you know done what ever they liked.

And seemed the way to do that involved you know letting them still do a bit of things I did not want them to do, but just agreed to because I figured if I at least gave them something I could get out easier, I for sure like said things like I would maybe come back and we could maybe do that later...but I was just saying that stuff so I could leave, even though I had at that point decided I would never even get within a 6 foot distance of them ever again once I got out of their apartment.



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26 Jun 2021, 11:36 pm

salad wrote:
This has been really bothering me as someone whose a proud fighter who would travel to the other ends of the earth to fight those who have hurt me, it pisses me off when I see all these videos and incidents of women getting groped, molested and even raped yet they never fight back, even a mild resistance they dont do. Even saying a simple "please stop" many women dont do. Now before I go any further cracking really sensitive eggs with this post let me clarify something:

In no way am I even insinuating that if a woman doesnt resist that it's ok to violate her consent. Absolutely not. Never! I'm a firm firm firm believer that if a women went into a bar naked, acted in a sexual manner, was groped nonconsensually but without resistance or even a no, that would still count as sexual assault regardless.

So before the pitchforks come out know that I'm not reviving the archaic and sexist tropes of lack of resistance implying consent.

I'm only asking because last week on vacation in Chicago a guy tried to grope my fiancee in front of me yet my badass fiance kicked the guy hard and dropped him. The moment she did that I fell in love with her more, but it also earned my respect for her even more.
But I also felt saddened by how many women in similar situations who dont fight back and who end up suffering regret for years that they didnt fight back. I get personally bothered when this happens to women and they dont resist, because growing up as a kid and watching my mom get battered helplessly by my dad without any resistance made me feel confused as to why my mom would let her husband terrorize her without any resistance

I'm not here to shame women who dont fight back, I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity: why do women become placid and servile when men overstep their boundaries. Why dont women fight back? Even if actual fighting cant be done, at least resist, at least say no, at least do something other than doing nothing. I really want to know because as a guy who throws fists when someone touches me the wrong way, it bothers me when I see women violated and they dont fight back

Sorry if I offended anyone. Watching my mom get abused growing up by my dad always made me wish she fought back, and I've felt stuck on the fact that she never resisted any of the beatings she took


some people get paralyzed and can't make up their mind or make their body fight back. I used to get bullied in fifth grade by kids putting their hands into my face and disrespecting me, and I never fought back fearing a larger fight with the kids because I felt they were better at fighting and also I just lost control of my body and did not have any aggressive response. It's weird. I could easily come up with aggression to someone I feel safe with like my family, but a bully - it's almost like I care about the bully to hurt them.



SharonB
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27 Jun 2021, 3:43 pm

The movie the Color Purple greatly impressed me as a young woman. The main character had been abused and when her child asks how to handle his "disobedient" spouse, the main character suggests abuse. It's the familiar and/or "safest" option. Eventually the "disobedient" spouse is beat nearly to death by the Authorities. She becomes helpless (mute even)... until the main character finds a role model, takes the risk, obtains independence and self esteem... then there were two people to stand together and that matters. It was the beginning of a culture shift.

Many women in my life have been physically or sexually abused and even those that reported the incidents to loved ones or the Authorities were dismissed, invalidated and humiliated or further hurt. Not one person I know of "won" by fighting back; all of them had to submit or leave. I can only think of one woman who fought and she was killed. A person needs support and/or independence to escape abuse --- if they believe those are not there or can't pay the price for those or survive the retaliation... submit.

I have been discriminated at work many times (as well as many, too many co-workers have) but only once did I "fight back". Initially I could not gain enough support to withstand the expected retaliation, so I voiced concerned (was invalidated) and left those situations. The fourth time I had sufficient support to "fight back" (but "lost" of course). NPR's story on a woman who fought back was inspiring to me (she "lost" of course). I know one woman who fought and "won" and she was blacklisted within the industry. For me, the retaliation was awful and I was fairly traumatized by the whole thing, but I am still living and hopefully will find myself in a better place. Generally the women at this company accept the discrimination and harassment --- because we are told it's worse elsewhere and sadly, at least in my field, it may not be too far off the mark. I more or less quietly submitted to workplace discrimination for decades --- it was the culture, everybody was doing it. Submit or get out. That is tough enough for a women in IT and especially tough for an Autistic woman as there are not as many options for gainful employment.

When my mother-in-law was being beat by my father-in -law, having seen her sisters beat by their husbands, I imagine she didn't think she could survive without a husband, nor find a man who wouldn't beat her. Submit. Thankfully there were role models for my generation and socioeconomic status - many women who were not physically abused --- I am financially independent and have means... early on I demonstrated to my husband that I would not accept physical abuse. Period. That said, I have accepted much emotional abuse --- the world is still condoning that and I lacked role models and support in that matter. I am still learning and practicing personal boundaries relative to that. Studies show emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical and sexual abuse. I submitted: I did not know a productive alternative.



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01 Jul 2021, 5:16 am

Never had this happen with me but had a close friend who suffered physical and sexual abuse for years from her hubby.

I remember her telling me that the first time he raped her she did fight back but found that he would just punch her in till she wouldn't fight back.

Over time as her own family all devout Christians said she is the reason why the marriage is struggling and after a few more rapes where she would resist and he would smack her till she stopped resisting and having no support from family at all she just gave in.

She said that she would once he made it clear he wanted sex she would always resist at first but as soon as he looked about to punch her she would make it so that he would be done as quick as possible cause she also said he would be rough as possible including anal insertion without lube.

The rapes would increase as he was desperate for a kid but she had managed to get on the pill and keep that secret for months till he found out and as revenge beat her to a pulp then raped her.

When she finally had the strength to go to the police the hubby made it out it was just rough sex and managed to get everyone including the family to turn on her even now the family blame her for the marriage failing and have disowned her.

At the time I asked why she choose to stop resisting and her reply was "I found it easier to just let him rape me then be punched to pieces then raped"
In this case it's a clear case of survival but she fully mistrusts men which I don't blame she even admits that my partner who is nothing but gentle and kind she is uneasy around him again I don't blame.



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01 Jul 2021, 9:21 am

What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.

Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 10:52 am

Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.

Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?


From what I'm understanding reading these posts it does seem that the police actually make rape victims feel worse and dont actually support them, making many afraid to report it to the police


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01 Jul 2021, 10:59 am

salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
From what I'm understanding reading these posts it does seem that the police actually make rape victims feel worse ...
Worse than the feeling of being raped?

Yeah, I know ... I am just a man, and I could never understand the shame and humiliation ... but what is all that compared to knowing that the attacker has escaped justice and may rape again?

I see Mr. Cosby's alleged victims are outraged at his release.  Had even one of them provided physical evidence of the alleged crime, Mr. Cosby would likely still be in prison ... for the rest of his life.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 11:23 am

Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
From what I'm understanding reading these posts it does seem that the police actually make rape victims feel worse ...
Worse than the feeling of being raped?

Yeah, I know ... I am just a man, and I could never understand the shame and humiliation ... but what is all that compared to knowing that the attacker has escaped justice and may rape again?

I see Mr. Cosby's alleged victims are outraged at his release.  Had even one of them provided physical evidence of the alleged crime, Mr. Cosby would likely still be in prison ... for the rest of his life.


It's not that simple. Rape victims are already feeling massively traumatized, confused and terrified after such a harrowing ordeal, and factor in the already rampant stories of the police retraumatizing rape victims, as well initial fear of reliving trauma by having to delve deeply into the details of the rape during police investigations, I would understand why rape victims would stay silent for a long time out of shame and fear until they are ready to open up.


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01 Jul 2021, 11:27 am

salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
From what I'm understanding reading these posts it does seem that the police actually make rape victims feel worse ...
Worse than the feeling of being raped?  Yeah, I know ... I am just a man, and I could never understand the shame and humiliation ... but what is all that compared to knowing that the attacker has escaped justice and may rape again?  I see Mr. Cosby's alleged victims are outraged at his release.  Had even one of them provided physical evidence of the alleged crime, Mr. Cosby would likely still be in prison ... for the rest of his life.
It's not that simple. Rape victims are already feeling massively traumatized, confused and terrified after such a harrowing ordeal, and factor in the already rampant stories of the police retraumatizing rape victims, as well initial fear of reliving trauma by having to delve deeply into the details of the rape during police investigations, I would understand why rape victims would stay silent for a long time out of shame and fear until they are ready to open up.
By that time, it is usually too late to get a conviction without resorting to shady legal practices, as in Mr. Cosby's case.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 11:37 am

Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
From what I'm understanding reading these posts it does seem that the police actually make rape victims feel worse ...
Worse than the feeling of being raped?  Yeah, I know ... I am just a man, and I could never understand the shame and humiliation ... but what is all that compared to knowing that the attacker has escaped justice and may rape again?  I see Mr. Cosby's alleged victims are outraged at his release.  Had even one of them provided physical evidence of the alleged crime, Mr. Cosby would likely still be in prison ... for the rest of his life.
It's not that simple. Rape victims are already feeling massively traumatized, confused and terrified after such a harrowing ordeal, and factor in the already rampant stories of the police retraumatizing rape victims, as well initial fear of reliving trauma by having to delve deeply into the details of the rape during police investigations, I would understand why rape victims would stay silent for a long time out of shame and fear until they are ready to open up.
By that time, it is usually too late to get a conviction without resorting to shady legal practices, as in Mr. Cosby's case.


I find that more a sobering reality of the tragedy of rape rather than an indictment of rape victims doing the best they can to avoid retraumatizing themselves in a world that isnt all too equipped to deal with the reality of rape properly


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01 Jul 2021, 11:42 am

Because lot of women fear men is why. They are afraid to fight back because they worry the guy will hurt them more like murder them or beat them for them saying no and resisting. Yes you heard me, women are afraid of men. They see them as monsters. That is why they pretend to be interested in a guy only to give them a wrong number for them to call them because they are so afraid to say no because they fear the guy no matter how friendly he is acting and how nice.

Women are not doing it to mess with men and to play games, they fear them so they fear rejecting the man, they fear saying no, they fear to resist.


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