Why don't more women fight back (TRIGGER WARNING)

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League_Girl
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01 Jul 2021, 11:52 am

Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.

Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?



Because they would have to relive their trauma, retell their story over and over and with trauma, it's even hard to remember accurate details. This becomes a kafka trap because when they do tell about it, it becomes proof they are making it up due to things not adding up. Lot of police are not trained to understand trauma, judges are not trained either.

There is a film out there that was made about a woman who was raped in her apartment, went to the police only to be told she made false allegations. It's called Unbelievable and it's on Netflix, watch it.


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01 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

League_Girl wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
Because they would have to relive their trauma, retell their story over and over and with trauma, it's even hard to remember accurate details. This becomes a kafka trap because when they do tell about it, it becomes proof they are making it up due to things not adding up. Lot of police are not trained to understand trauma, judges are not trained either. There is a film out there that was made about a woman who was raped in her apartment, went to the police only to be told she made false allegations. It's called Unbelievable and it's on Netflix, watch it.
Obviously, rape victims need far more support than they're currently getting, including help in documenting evidence and building strong legal cases.  Maybe hospitals should be where they go first, so that the evidence can be collected and documented by compassionate (and female) medical staff before the victims are interviewed by the police.

I just do not know ... the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it.


:(



ArtsyFarsty
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01 Jul 2021, 12:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.

Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?

1. Shock, trauma, and denial

2. The knowledge that physical evidence may not be enough to charge the perpetrator, as he can claim it was consensual

3. The fact that there are massive backlogs in processing rape kits; the victim could do everything "right", but their rape kit will sit on a shelf for years, behind 10,000 other kits awaiting testing

4. The fact that the victim WILL be called a liar and have their own character assassinated. For some reason, there is still a knee-jerk reaction to disbelieve victims, no matter how much evidence is produced



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01 Jul 2021, 12:50 pm

ArtsyFarsty wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
1. Shock, trauma, and denial

2. The knowledge that physical evidence may not be enough to charge the perpetrator, as he can claim it was consensual

3. The fact that there are massive backlogs in processing rape kits; the victim could do everything "right", but their rape kit will sit on a shelf for years, behind 10,000 other kits awaiting testing

4. The fact that the victim WILL be called a liar and have their own character assassinated. For some reason, there is still a knee-jerk reaction to disbelieve victims, no matter how much evidence is produced
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 12:55 pm

Fnord wrote:
ArtsyFarsty wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
1. Shock, trauma, and denial

2. The knowledge that physical evidence may not be enough to charge the perpetrator, as he can claim it was consensual

3. The fact that there are massive backlogs in processing rape kits; the victim could do everything "right", but their rape kit will sit on a shelf for years, behind 10,000 other kits awaiting testing

4. The fact that the victim WILL be called a liar and have their own character assassinated. For some reason, there is still a knee-jerk reaction to disbelieve victims, no matter how much evidence is produced
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.


While a top down solution may be inconceivable to us now at the very least an organic bottom up approach visa vis mass education on the reality of rape would go a long way in preventing rape and helping victims better. Ignorance is still the biggest issue to reform and curing ignorance by education would make a world's difference


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01 Jul 2021, 1:01 pm

salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.
While a top down solution may be inconceivable to us now at the very least an organic bottom up approach visa vis mass education on the reality of rape would go a long way in preventing rape and helping victims better. Ignorance is still the biggest issue to reform and curing ignorance by education would make a world's difference
We would have to start with banning pornography in all of its many forms, including the secondary and submissive roles portrayed by women in non-pornographic media.  When at least an entire generation has been deprived of imagery that contradicts how men and women should treat each other, only then will humanity be on its way to deprogramming men and eliminating toxic male culture.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 1:05 pm

Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.
While a top down solution may be inconceivable to us now at the very least an organic bottom up approach visa vis mass education on the reality of rape would go a long way in preventing rape and helping victims better. Ignorance is still the biggest issue to reform and curing ignorance by education would make a world's difference
We would have to start with banning pornography in all of its many forms, including the secondary and submissive roles portrayed by women in non-pornographic media.  When at least an entire generation has been deprived of imagery that contradicts how men and women should treat each other, only then will humanity be on its way to deprogramming men and eliminating toxic male culture.


This may surprise you, but when I used to argue for a total ban of pornography back in high school I got called sexist!! Against women!! ! This may surprise you, but the most ardent supporters of pornography are actually feminist women themselves. Yes it's true also that the most vocal opponents of pornography are feminists, but the most ardent defenders are also feminist women. This is actually a divisive issue within feminist circles, with some more traditional feminists condemning porn on grounds of objectifying women, with feminist supporters argue that it's an expression of female autonomy and that women can do whatever they want with their bodies for money


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01 Jul 2021, 1:05 pm

Freezing as a survival mechanism isn't limited to women.

As much as I tend to be quite game I'll concede I've frozen in response to physical confrontations before.

I've also induced that response in people. It tends to make it less likely that more violence will follow because someone in that state is basically as pliant as they'll ever be. As the aggressor, unless the entire goal was just to use force that response shifts the aggressor away from trying to impose submission and compliance back towards focusing on whatever it was that caused force to be used in the first place.


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01 Jul 2021, 1:08 pm

salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
salad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.
While a top down solution may be inconceivable to us now at the very least an organic bottom up approach visa vis mass education on the reality of rape would go a long way in preventing rape and helping victims better. Ignorance is still the biggest issue to reform and curing ignorance by education would make a world's difference
We would have to start with banning pornography in all of its many forms, including the secondary and submissive roles portrayed by women in non-pornographic media.  When at least an entire generation has been deprived of imagery that contradicts how men and women should treat each other, only then will humanity be on its way to deprogramming men and eliminating toxic male culture.
This may surprise you, but when I used to argue for a total ban of pornography back in high school I got called sexist!! Against women!! ! This may surprise you, but the most ardent supporters of pornography are actually feminist women themselves. Yes it's true also that the most vocal opponents of pornography are feminists, but the most ardent defenders are also feminist women. This is actually a divisive issue within feminist circles, with some more traditional feminists condemning porn on grounds of objectifying women, with feminist supporters argue that it's an expression of female autonomy and that women can do whatever they want with their bodies for money
I have heard both arguments before (sometimes from the same person), so I am not surprised at all.



ArtsyFarsty
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01 Jul 2021, 1:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
ArtsyFarsty wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.  Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?
1. Shock, trauma, and denial

2. The knowledge that physical evidence may not be enough to charge the perpetrator, as he can claim it was consensual

3. The fact that there are massive backlogs in processing rape kits; the victim could do everything "right", but their rape kit will sit on a shelf for years, behind 10,000 other kits awaiting testing

4. The fact that the victim WILL be called a liar and have their own character assassinated. For some reason, there is still a knee-jerk reaction to disbelieve victims, no matter how much evidence is produced
Again, the system has failed, and I do not know what can be done to fix it -- maybe no one does.

The System is a reflection of how society regards victims of rape and abuse. Can't even chalk it up to misogyny, as male victims, trans and non-binary victims, and child victims aren't regarded any better.



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02 Jul 2021, 11:30 am

Fnord wrote:
What I cannot understand is why victims do not report being raped to the police until long after any material evidence can be collected, and then denounce anyone who does not accept their testimony as absolute truth.

Do they honestly believe that physical evidence is irrelevant, and that all that really matters is their word alone?


Depends on the individual, but I hear that a common reason is the trauma and the shock of a situation causing the person to not think rationally.

I'd imagine it's a little like being in a burning building. I've had fire drills at school since I was little and have had those in work places, too, so in theory I know the basic steps of what to do if there's a fire and I can't put it out. But just because I know what to do, it doesn't mean I'll be able to do it in the actual situation when fear takes over. When people are afraid, it's not uncommon to forget what the logical choice in whatever situation they're in would be.

Then, there's also the chance that if violence was not used, like the victim has no bruises or anything, then it's often word against word if the rapist doesn't deny having sex with the victim but says that the victim did so out of their own free will. The victim is in an especially poor position if they were drunk or had been seen talking, perhaps even flirting, with the rapist before the rape. And if the rapist is one's own spouse, it's even harder to convince people without any marks of violence present... also, I'm pretty sure there are still countries where raping one's own wife (or husband) is legal; it didn't become illegal here until -94 or -95.

I've also heard that it's not all that uncommon for police officers to mock and belittle the victim's experience, though that might depend a lot on the country and the area. I read about one case somewhere in the middle east or northern Africa where the police officers had just laughed to the victim's face when she went to report it. But if someone fears that happening, it's understandable if they fear going to the police station.
Some women, who've been victims of men, might simply fear to go because they fear dealing with unknown, unpredictable men. This is one of the reasons why there should be more women in the police force; women who've been victims to sexual assault by men would be likelier to talk to a fellow woman.



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02 Jul 2021, 2:06 pm

Also I think that more women are coming forward about different men because they feel stronger in numbers. "If she can do it so can I."

For years they kept this secret, thinking that no one would believe them, but now, finally, they have a bit of confidence drawn from seeing other women present successful cases.



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02 Jul 2021, 2:13 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Also I think that more women are coming forward about different men because they feel stronger in numbers.  "If she can do it so can I."  For years they kept this secret, thinking that no one would believe them, but now, finally, they have a bit of confidence drawn from seeing other women present successful cases.
But many of them wait so long to come forward, that not only is there no physical evidence to present in court, but the statute of limitations for the (alleged) crimes has run out, and all they can ever hope to accomplish is to put a "taint" on the reputations of their (alleged) attackers -- THAT is what makes me sad.



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02 Jul 2021, 2:22 pm

Fnord wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Also I think that more women are coming forward about different men because they feel stronger in numbers.  "If she can do it so can I."  For years they kept this secret, thinking that no one would believe them, but now, finally, they have a bit of confidence drawn from seeing other women present successful cases.
But many of them wait so long to come forward, that not only is there no physical evidence to present in court, but the statute of limitations for the (alleged) crimes has run out, and all they can ever hope to accomplish is to put a "taint" on the reputations of their (alleged) attackers.


If that's the only recourse left should they feel obliged to not say anything and help the attacker keep getting away with it?


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02 Jul 2021, 2:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Also I think that more women are coming forward about different men because they feel stronger in numbers.  "If she can do it so can I."  For years they kept this secret, thinking that no one would believe them, but now, finally, they have a bit of confidence drawn from seeing other women present successful cases.
But many of them wait so long to come forward, that not only is there no physical evidence to present in court, but the statute of limitations for the (alleged) crimes has run out, and all they can ever hope to accomplish is to put a "taint" on the reputations of their (alleged) attackers -- THAT is what makes me sad.


Yes it is sad, but I guess they feel like they've bottled it up for so long that they can't keep it in anymore and need to speak out.

Maybe they feel like their testimony will help someone else who is within the statute of limitations.

Maybe they think they can save someone else from being assaulted by that man if they make his reputation public.



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02 Jul 2021, 4:09 pm

hurtloam wrote:
[...] I guess they feel like they've bottled it up for so long that they can't keep it in anymore and need to speak out.  Maybe they feel like their testimony will help someone else who is within the statute of limitations.  Maybe they think they can save someone else from being assaulted by that man if they make his reputation public.
And if they come forward right away, maybe they can put a man away for the rest of his life and cover all these bases, as well.

I am sorry ... this topic hits close to home ... if even one of the other victims of the man who raped and strangled my childhood friend had come forward right away, maybe she would still be alive today.