Discrimination among the autistic community ??

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Ghosthunter
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06 Mar 2006, 10:00 pm

first of all I have no idea what the original context is about?

Can someone explain!

Second of all the pages on this forum are whited out partially and
the actual message and page alignment is completely off!

What is the topic?
What was said?
and what was the original post so I can understand the reasons?

sincerely,
Ghosthunter



LePetitPrince
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08 Mar 2006, 6:19 pm

^^ the topic is :

Do you think there is discrimination among the autistic community (between HFA ,LFA , aspergers , pda .....) ????



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08 Mar 2006, 6:39 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
^^ the topic is :

Do you think there is discrimination among the autistic community (between HFA ,LFA , aspergers , pda .....) ????


Certainly. The most socially successful Autistic people will discriminate against the least socially successful Autistic people. Those who have the most ability to mix with neurotypicals will have less understanding and tolerance for those who have less common problems among the Autistic community. It's identical to how in special schools for disabled children, there is a hierachy in which bullying takes place. At the top of the hierarchy is people able to walk, then people who use crutches, then people in wheelchairs, then people in electric wheelchairs and so forth. The lower in the hierachy you are the more of a victim you are likely to be. Just as neurotypicals and normies have hierarchies so do Autistics and the disabled. Hope comes from the people whose souls see beyond the hierarchy and can learn to not take advantage of people less able than them.



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08 Mar 2006, 7:33 pm

Unfortunately no matter what community you are in, there is always going to be discrimination of some sort. It seems to be a sad fact of life that people are discriminated against because of a disability, their wealth status or whatever. Its just a matter of not judging people on what you see, rather seeing them for the person they are. Some are unable to do this and quite frankly I think its sad.



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08 Mar 2006, 8:01 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
But i'd probably talk to the people with AS the most, as i've got nothing in common with the others.
If it came down to talking, I'd probably talk mostly to those who talk back. Unfortunately that would skew the interaction toward the HFA/AS end of the spectrum. I have never met someone LFA in real life, so I don't know what that would be like. I somehow think they would be less interested in me than I would be in them...

fernando wrote:
Well, I don't think there could be discrimination problems when deep inside we are all alike. I have always considered the less functioning autistics to be my little brothers...
The fact that you consider them little brothers rather than older brothers (or even equals) is itself discriminatory. Not to mention condescending.


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LePetitPrince
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11 Mar 2006, 6:20 pm

your opinions make me feel better ...thanks :) a lot of u are reasonable



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13 Mar 2010, 8:45 pm

Jetson wrote:
fernando wrote:
Well, I don't think there could be discrimination problems when deep inside we are all alike. I have always considered the less functioning autistics to be my little brothers...
The fact that you consider them little brothers rather than older brothers (or even equals) is itself discriminatory. Not to mention condescending.


Well i am no angel.

(yes, it did take me four years to think up a reply)


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13 Mar 2010, 9:34 pm

*really hoping i don't get my head lopped off for this!!*

I sometimes think that Aspies use LFAs to their advantage and take it upon themselves to speak for them as if they have some higher understanding of them because they are also on the spectrum. I have seen Aspies (not on here) using LFAs to advocate for their own agendas, speaking FOR LFAs to further their cause, it's very annoying. Especially around "cure" issues I find it particualry offensive when HFAs/Aspies say there is no need for a cure and if LFAs could tell us, they'd say the same thing, to me that is the same as NTs saying they would want to be cured. And Aspies also talk about LFAs in such general terms and lump them all together, yet they're always yelling that "you've met one aspie, you've met one aspie", it's the same for LFAs. Just seems so hypocritical.

I should probably make it clearer this isn't a reflection of what I've seen here (on this forum) but more life experiences.


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Callista
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13 Mar 2010, 9:59 pm

Actually, the best thing you can do for any group is to advocate for each person to have his own voice. You do no good by attempting to "speak for" anybody. Universal human rights--that, you can demand for anybody whether they have language or not.

Response to the cure issue seems to be just as divided for autistics with severe disabilities as it is for the rest. Among the people who can communicate well enough to discuss it, it seems to fall pretty randomly on both sides of the fence, just like it does for any other subgroup of autistics. But if it is true that I cannot "speak for" non-verbal people, then nobody else can, either. Just because I can't presume they don't want a cure doesn't mean that it makes any more sense for other people to presume that they do. When somebody cannot communicate well enough to get abstract concepts across (only unconscious people do not communicate at all), then you have to fall back on universal human rights. And, among those rights is the right not to be mistreated--which includes having your happiness sacrificed to make you more "normal" or easier to handle.

Cure itself is a complicated issue. But the "cure mentality"--normality at any cost--is not beneficial to anyone, at any level, and shouldn't be applied to anybody whether or not they can speak. Especially not if they can't speak. Someone who can speak could communicate a decision to give up happiness for the ability to appear more normal; someone who cannot speak should not be made to give up happiness whether or not the people around him want him to be more normal. When somebody can't communicate, you should be all the more careful to avoid making decisions for your benefit instead of his.

If you define "LFA" as someone who cannot communicate abstract ideas, then by definition, NOBODY can know what they want. Not us, not their parents, not the "advocacy" organizations. That means nobody can justifiably words in their mouths, whatever you think they might say if they had language. However, as I've said, the opinions of those who are as severely disabled as non-language-using autistics (and similarly labeled LFA) seem to range all over the spectrum from "cure at any cost" to "I'll die first". Just like they do for people with very mild disability.


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13 Mar 2010, 10:36 pm

I would hope so. The concept of equality never meant agreement, which seems to be the main use now.

It is not discrimination to follow your own star. Terms like Ableist, infer that only in universal disabiity can there be union.

From LFA on it is all Autism.

Some claim Neurodivirsity, that every one coverd by the DSM is one group. A larger equality.

90% of autism is not covered by the DSM, and lives in the world, with worlders.

Many have enough of all traits to be covered by the DSM, yet are not, for they have figured out how to survive and are not disabled.

Others do not have DSM level traits, but are disabled by the ones they have in their life.

Discrimination, as in, I do not identify with that, is everywhere.

Everyone should get the best care does not mean the same care.

I am so human that if there were three of me we would argue. It would show the day to day shift in my being, and various moods would not tolerate each other. We might agree on where to go to lunch, but not when.

Everyone is going to see the world from where they are standing.



anbuend
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13 Mar 2010, 10:58 pm

Yes there definitely is. I have been speaking out against such discrimination for practically the entire time I have been involved with the autistic community.

First off there is discrimination along the hierarchy of AS, HFA, LFA. Note that I am using these terms because others use them not because I believe in them.

The most common form of such discrimination is a hierarchy with AS (or AS/HFA) at the top and LFA at the bottom.

You hear people talking about LFA as if those who have been labeled that way are a perfectly valid category formed by all the stereotypes are all the same. And as if we are universally incapable of everything (note surprise and disbelief when someone who speaks or writes, or does so well, or other talents, is labeled LFA or severe -- especially if they have a talent not all deemed mild have).

Ever hear "aspies are part of diversity but LFAs are broken"?

You hear people saying to be deemed LFA is to be incapable of self-advocacy so the "HF" people must do it all for us. The reality is that not only can many who've been put in that category speak or write to various extents, but that self-advocacy isn't limited to speech. People can advocate for tgemselves through behavior. And you rarely see the ones who stereotype people this way doing things like joining the organization that goes into institutions and gets communication technology to everyone who needs it. Because that would be helping people speak for themselves.

You hear people assuming that those deemed LFA are either more extreme versions of themselves, or "aspies except with lots of comorbids we should cure to make them all aspies" and such. Or that we are all just not interested in communicating or interacting. Or that we are just like they were when they were kids (hint: Even if we retain certain perceptual characteristics longer than some, if we live with them for decades we find systems of navigating the world within those characteristics and are therefore not as disoriented or oblivious as little kids are).

You hear people denigrating anyone regardless of label who has difficulty they don't. Those who can hold jobs, pass for nonautistic, memorize and apply social rules, prepare meals, clean up after themselves, handle bathroom stuff, bathe, and so on... many such people treat those of us who can't do some or all of that like scum especially if we are "obviously intelligent". They say or imply that we lack self discipline, wallow in self pity, are choosing to be unable to do things, etc. Or that it's all an emotional problem.

One time I made the mistake of describing on this board in detail the autistic traits that led to my starving for nearly a year. I had cognitive trouble remembering that the cabinet next to me held food and wasn't just a blank faced if pretty design on the wall. I had perceptual trouble recognizing my surroundings as anything other than patterns of color. I had trouble connecting to my body and making it move consistently and on demand. These are both issues that are totally absent for some autistic people. No amount of self discipline can overcome them. Effort led to overload which manifested as often as not, as total lack of comprehension of my surroundings, total inability to connect with or move my body, and other inconvenient facts. The longer I went without food the worse it got because brains need food to function.

The responses I got? "You must have had a death wish." "Stop wallowing in self pity." "I have no sympathy for someone who would starve themselves within two feet of food." And no matter how I explained that these were just factual descriptions rather than emotional ones the worse the accusations got. People who find all those things trivially easy couldn't begin to comprehend that level of difficulty so they assumed I was experiencing the things it would take for them to have trouble eating. They refused to understand that my experiences stemmed from autism not from anything else. (During the period of starvation I talked about I attended some support group meetings offline and all the responses I got were "Why don't you just {insert impossible thing here}" or "But that's easy!")

And I have seen people berating others here for being unable to do other things. "If you people would just buckle down and try you could get a job." "You just want to live off of other people." Heaven forbid someone get welfare or anything else, they must just not want to grow up and face the real world. (I assure you there is no luxury on welfare. Really. Everything from the Poor Laws onward has made sure of that on purpose.) And of course we are all lazy too.

That sort of thing hoes on every day here.

A second form of discrimination is from those with more common or stereotypical forms of autism discriminating against those with rarer forms. People like me seem to be a minority (if possibly a large one) among autistics. So I notice this all the time.

Have abilities that shift around day to day moment to moment? Have serious receptive language issues even if you write well? Come from a perceptual "starting place" where you don't recognize words or objects as anything but patterns of light and sound, and have to work hard to get past that point? Have an entire system of navigating the world without need for such recognition? See the world in terms of pattern rather than symbol or abstraction?

Well in the autistic community anyone experiencing such things can have a rough ride at times. Because most people in the community have very stable abilities, can pick out objects and words (possibly with a few auditory processing problems), thinks in words or pictures or logic and other fairly symbolic things, cannot navigate the world during the occasional shutdowns they may have that can temporarily immerse them in those other experiences, etc. And if you vary from that norm in any respect you can expect incomprehension at best and being told you're not autistic at worst. And people will tell you you're lazy, just not trying, etc.

A third form of discrimination is the inverse of the first: LFA having more status than HFA or AS.

This is rarer but you will sometimes see people claiming to have the most authentic autistic experience. They are real autistics whereas those aspies are just wannabes or fakers. They ought to have the final say in all matters autistic. This can get very annoying but is thankfully rarer than it's opposite.

*********

Anyway there are all kinds of little things too.

Ever hear someone call it the "HFA/AS community"? Or the aspie community? Ever wonder how that feels to anyone who has been labeled LFA or even just autism with no functioning label? It reads like "the everybody but you community".

Things like that. There's lots more and I'd link to posts I've written if I had the energy. But this is long enough.


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14 Mar 2010, 1:29 am

Inventor wrote:
It is not discrimination to follow your own star. Terms like Ableist, infer that only in universal disabiity can there be union.

From LFA on it is all Autism.

Some claim Neurodivirsity, that every one coverd by the DSM is one group. A larger equality.

90% of autism is not covered by the DSM, and lives in the world, with worlders.
Remember that there are two definitions of "autistic" being talked about around here--one is the group who can be diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder; the other is the group which identifies culturally as autistic. The groups overlap, but it's possible to be in one but not the other.

You can be autistic and be in denial about it, or simply not know, or not think about the concept of autistic people as a group. That would put you in the diagnosable autistic category but not the cultural autistic category. On the other hand, you could be non-impaired, maybe having been diagnosed as a child and grown out of it, or simply having autistic traits that don't create disability, and have identified as autistic because you have the neurology and you have the cognitive style and you have lots of experiences in common with other people who also identify as autistic. That would put you in the cultural autistic group, but not the diagnosable autistic group. The large group in the middle (both culturally and diagnosably autistic) makes up the core of the autistic culture; but there are a great many people whose shared experiences tie them into the same group without any disability at all.

We need lots of diverse people in the neurodiversity movement, because the more perspectives we can draw on, the better. And that should include parents/caretakers of people who can't use language to tell us what they think, because we need their perspectives too, and talking to the people who know them best has the greatest chance of getting information from their heads to ours.


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14 Mar 2010, 1:39 am

+a million for anbuend


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14 Mar 2010, 2:06 am

I believe there could be some to a mild degree.



anbuend
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14 Mar 2010, 6:27 am

Okay I finally put together the URLs of a lot of things I've written on this topic:

Temple Grandin displaying near-textbook HFA/AS elitism
Temple Grandin devalues us again, in print this time
Barnard Power
Aspification
More on Aspification
Aspificating Snobbery over the DSM All Over Again
Why do you think I must want to be like you?
My sort of people, just as real as theirs
Aspie Supremacy Can Kill

While reading them I remembered another thing that happens: In response to my appearance, some autistic people have said outright that they don't want to be associated with anyone who looks like that. And I have seen the same happen to others.


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14 Mar 2010, 12:27 pm

fernando wrote:
Jetson wrote:
fernando wrote:
Well, I don't think there could be discrimination problems when deep inside we are all alike. I have always considered the less functioning autistics to be my little brothers...
The fact that you consider them little brothers rather than older brothers (or even equals) is itself discriminatory. Not to mention condescending.


Well i am no angel.

(yes, it did take me four years to think up a reply)


:lol: